ADV OU Viability Rankings

Comparing Weezing to Gengar is ridiculous. They have a few similarities sure but I don't see where this argument is going because they very rarely if ever compete for the same spot on a team. If the only reason you have gengar on a team is for a shaky lax check and fighting resist, then well you shouldn't be using gar, and that's literally the only overlap they have. That being said, weezing definitely isn't B- material. It's quite difficult to build around and the main things it counters solidly other than lax aren't particularly common. That being said it's a pretty cool mon, bulky willowisp users are amazing and it soft counters basically every physical attacker in the tier. Solid C material, that I could maybe see moving up to C+.
 
I maintain my disagreement; I think that Gengar and Weezing compete for the same slot. Weezing handles snorlax single-handedly rather than in tandem with its teammates, is an arguably better heracross answer, it's a stallbreaker rather than cleaner, and is less vulnerable to pursuit.
 

Ibidem

Member
That being said, weezing definitely isn't B- material. It's quite difficult to build around and the main things it counters solidly other than lax aren't particularly common.

I disagree completely. It's very easy to fit into a team because Weezing does job on his own. So you don't build around it first place. Sure it will like wish support but who doesn't. Kingdra requires more support such as Blissey boom lure or Dugtrio and yet is ranked as B-, even though there is very similar but much better Ludicolo which reduces Kingdra usage.
 

musicaltide

everfall
Member
I think it's about time Venusaur rose from C+ to B+. Sleep moves are amazing in today's meta, and Venu works well as a more proactive special wall than standard defensive Bi or Blissey due to Sleep Powder alone. I'd personally put it right beneath Milotic or Gyarados, and above P2. Regardless, Venu definitely is a cut above the rest of the C+ tier mons, if its increased usage is anything to go by.

Also, Raikou belongs solidly in B or even B- instead B+. It's weakness to Spikes, lack of longevity due to sand, and lack of hard-hitting moves all contribute to why it's the most disappointing cool mon ever. Rest Raikou is a decent attempt to mitigate its flaws, but Spikes + any EQ user can force it out continuously to the point that it basically does nothing all game. From personal experience, I can't recall any moment in the last year or two when Raikou actually did its job well, whether sweeping late game or checking special threats like Gar and Zapdos. Perhaps place Kou under Claydol (right above the 1U line).

Lastly, I think Cloyster deserves to be at least above Ludicolo in B, and perhaps even in B+ alongside Gyara and co. Since solely using HP Fire Magneton (without Spinners) has become a popular way to check the two most-used Spikers (Skarm and Forry), Cloyster has an easy time getting 2-3 layers on such spinless teams. It still has many flaws, which is why it dies pretty quickly, but it does its job of stacking Spikes and maintaining momentum (with Explosion) well enough to warrant a promotion.
 

awoken

Member
The two cents of a nobody on the rankings:

Suicune -> top of A+. He's good, but I don't think this guy has seen top five usage at any time in the entire history of advance. Really dangerous with either the offensive or defensive set messing up most teams but not really as splashable as the other S-tiers or even something like Swampert. Also has nowhere near the versatility of Tyranitar/Gengar/Celebi who have like ten very different viable/common sets each vs. the maybe four from Suicune which are basically either offensive cm or defensive rest.

Jirachi -> middle of A. Curselax is hard to use in the current meta of Sand Spikes spam but I've seen it win more games than CM+Wish, SubCM, or CM+3 Jirachi. Astarachi and Utility Lax are pretty comparable though and each have strengths and weaknesses. Blissey while not as versatile is the single hardest counter that exists in the game. Aerodactyl can always flinch his way to a victory. In my experience, these three in particular have won a lot more games either offensively or defensively than any Jirachi variant, and are equal at worst.

Zapdos -> below Blissey. Decent mon, but offensive sets get walled by too many things and the defensive sets really aren't the same without sleep talk. Rest variants get forced into sleep cycles by pretty much everything and while you're asleep you're giving free switches to dangerous stuff like Aerodactyl. Feels so bad when the opponent switches in Skarmory on your rest turn and then spikes in Zapdos' face. Baton Pass is cool though.

Jolteon -> B+. This guy takes so much from the things it's supposed to check (Suicune/Gengar/Zapdos etc.) whether it be status or a 70% hydro pump. On the offensive sand teams he's usually on, if the opponent manages to set up a layer of spikes, which is virtually guaranteed with SpDef Skarmory, his longevity is laughable. Good for keeping momentum and spikes down though.

Flygon -> B+. Don't see why he is above Milotic. Decent rock resist but requires quite a bit of support (Magneton/Pursuit) if you want to land toxic or do anything meaningful with earthquake. Even then, he still has 4MSS. Defensively, he only covers Tyranitar and Electrics without HP Ice or Toxic, which is virtually none of them nowadays.

Raikou -> bottom of B. Absolutely the worst OU. The only thing he's good for is checking if the opponent has Blissey, and even then they sometimes send out Celebi instead. Really shaky answer to the stuff he's supposed to come in on (Gengar/Zapdos). Like Jolteon, really suffers from high toxic Skarmory and will-o-wisp Gengar usage. Still not as bad as some are making him out to be.

Claydol -> B+. Refresh variant is the most reliable defensive spinner in the tier. Combined with Magneton you basically guarantee winning the spike war. Poor offenses make him niche but he absolutely has better team matchups than things like P2 and Gyarados.

Cloyster -> B+. Similar to Claydol, really good in the current meta, but nonetheless very matchup reliant. Almost never spins but can easily get 3 layers vs mag teams. Usually gets pretty relevant booms if it doesn't die to toxic and sand first.

Kingdra -> somewhere in the Cs. Outclassed pretty hard by Suicune and Ludicolo and there are at least 10 things in the Cs better than this.

Venusaur -> B. Have a hard time putting this over anything in 1U except maybe Raikou. Has good matchups with some speed against almost all common leads except Salamence. Significantly less stable than Celebi, and getting hit by any status is devastating. Doesn't take more than half from any non-stab special attack, but every mon has something that can hit Venusaur for a third, which combined with spikes, sand, and no recovery makes you wonder if sleep powder was worth it.
 
B

regice.png
Regice
venusaur.png
Venusaur
claydol.png
Claydol
-------------------- Everything above this line is 1U -------------------- Everything below this line is 2P --------------------
cloyster.png
Cloyster
vaporeon.png
Vaporeon
raikou.png
Raikou
Shouldn't that be "2U" and not "2P"? Cloyster and Vaporeon are not banned in 2U, and Raikou hasn't even been tested yet (and is probably fine there with bulky Grasses and Lanturn being common). Also, why is Venusaur above the 1U line? Doesn't it need a vote for it to be raised to 1U?
 
After some discussion on discord and some reconsidering, I've decided the way we went about this probably isn't the best in regards to how the 1u/2u line is determined. The way the line was drawn originally was that the pokemon in B tier were voted upon by they now nonexistent ADV 1U council. In the spirit of transparency and democracy, it is probably better at least for now for this vote to be open to the community instead of a small council behind closed doors. As a result I'd like to propose a new series of votes to determine the position of the 1u/2u line. For now the line has been removed meaning there currently is no official 2u tier. The way I'd like to conduct the vote is as follows. First we will vote upon the order of the pokemon in the B tier. I would like this vote to be done via PM in order to prevent dishonest voting based upon the votes of others. Anyone who has an opinion on the matter will send a PM to me with their list of the current B tier pokemon (not B+ or B-) in the order they see them in regards to viability, with the most viable at the top, and the least viable at the bottom. After a sufficient amount of time, I will use a point system to determine the final order. Since there are currently 6 Pokemon in the B tier, a placement of first place will earn 5 points, second 4 points, and so on. The pokemon will be ranked based on how many points they earned in the vote. If there are any ties, we will hold further votes until each pokemon in B tier has a solid rank. As a reminder, the pokemon in B tier are:

regice.png
Regice
venusaur.png
Venusaur
claydol.png
Claydol
cloyster.png
Cloyster
vaporeon.png
Vaporeon
raikou.png
Raikou

Once this process is complete, we will then hold a vote to determine where the line between 1u and 2u should be drawn. At the end of this process we should have a well defined 2u tier determined by Pokemon Perfect's ADV 1U community, and we can begin work revitalizing the tier, and continuing further tiering.
 
i actually have a rather funny nom to make; I'll understand if people think its so bad that it's worth not ranking
but i'm going to ask what you guys think about nidoqueen

Nidoqueen
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 116 SpD
Bold Nature
- Taunt
- Counter
- Ice Beam
- Thief

been using this a bit on a team with knock off yama+sand, i think being 4hko'd by mixmence/being able to deny skarm spikes/removing items from stuff like skarm or bliss or pert or zap or gar is pretty cool/it lives CB gross eq or mash and can use counter. its obviously not "good" and has a lot of issues, 4mss is definitely something i run into; but i think to make this work you have to use the utility nidoqueen has to offer in stuff like taunt/thief/counter, resisting sand is deifnitely a good selling point as well etc;

taunt/thief/fblast/ibeam, also sounds p good to me, again just posting to see what people think of it. it needs a v specific type of team to work but on some teams the utility can be worth it
 
My version:

Nidoqueen
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Def / 80 SpA / 44 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Thief
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam

speed creepin' skarm etc., fire blast 2hkoing heracross, ice beam 2hkoing aerodactyl, earthquake ohkos jolteon after sand. Max out that def to beat heracross and survive metagross.

Basically it's a hera / aero / jolt check that can thief lefties from skarm/gar/bulky waters/bliss/other stuff

Nido + Big 5 team: here
 
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sidenote that Machamp being a better CBer (due to higher attack) than Hariyama (which is better for almost everything else due to knock off / whirlwind / being bulkier if EVd properly when not using all of its attacking power) is not the only niche it has over Hariyama. It also has Light Screen and Encore. I've used Light Screen on a team now...
 

Stockings

Mum stole me darts
Member
Machamp's primary niche and probably it's best reason for seeing play is entirely different to hariyama's. The thing that makes 'champ a real contender for a place on the VR is that it's bulk up set is absurdly powerful vs almost every team after a certain point in the game and downright decimates slow teams as well as teams that rely on w-o-w spreading to position themselves better against midgame physical threats, there is however a big conflict here with a number of other mons, the most apparent of which being sd hera.

In general machamp (either cb, bulkup or whatever other unset) has to fight for a tough slot, imo, in most cases hera, lax or medicham will be flat out better.
 
Machamp is a bit bulkier than medicham, and has a rock resist (and so can to some extent check ttar) which is a large part of its niche over those mons.

Machamp's only niche over Hariyama is a couple of novelty moves and having more raw power.
 
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