GSC OU Viability Rankings

[Lojh]

The purpose of this thread is to rank all of the pokemon in GSC OU in approximate order of their effectiveness. Feel free to suggest any changes to this list, though please be sure to back your posts up with adequate reasoning. Posts like “I believe pokémon X should be in this tier” are not useful and therefore will not be tolerated.

S Rank - These Pokemon are formidable threats to the point where they define the meta. They possess incredible offensive or defensive capabilities and should be considered for almost every team.

Snorlax Rank - belongs on almost every serious team

Snorlax

Electrics Rank - at least one of these should be on most serious teams

Raikou

Zapdos

Cloyster Rank - defines the meta hugely

Cloyster

A Rank - These Pokemon are excellent choices in the tier. They are very effective in their roles such that they are common sights in high level matches and they help shape the tier without dominating it.

A+

Exeggutor

Gengar

Skarmory

A-

Machamp

Nidoking

Steelix

Tyranitar

Vaporeon

B Rank - These Pokemon are generally good choices in the tier, capable of fulfilling a given role effectively. They see regular usage within the tier and may help to shape the meta, although they do suffer from some minor flaws

B+

Forretress

Heracross

Marowak

Miltank

Misdreavus

Starmie

Suicune

Umbreon

B-

Jynx

Rhydon

Tentacruel

C Rank - These Pokemon have a decent niche within the tier and may pose a significant threat with the right support. Despite this, they possess some flaws that can sometimes make them difficult to use. Overall they are relevant threats that are seen occasionally in high level play.

C+

Blissey

Dragonite

Golem

Jolteon

Muk

Porygon2

C-

Charizard

Clefable

Espeon

Kangaskhan

Meganium

Quagsire

Smeargle

If you’d like to suggest a pokemon not on this list to be in one of these tiers, feel free to say so

 

[M Dragon]

Skarm to A+ (i would say its top 5 or 6 of GSC)
Tyranitar to A+ (maybe keep it in A tho, but TTar is a huge threat both offensively and defensively)
Miltank to A- (not as good as the other A mons)
Machamp to A (one of the greatest GSC threats, a ton of teams are Machamp weak, especially with Starm being so easy to lure, it deserves A at least)
Umbreon to A- (its better than the other B mons)
Dragonite to A- (can wall more than half of the tier easily and is a big threat with a mixed set)
Smeargle to C+ (I think that Quag, Zard, P2, Kan, Don and Tenta are better than Smeargle. In fact I would move all those 6 mons to B because they are all amazing mons and I would merge C+ and C)
Alakazam C (much better than the rest of D+)
Sandslash and Piloswine to D+ (they are worse then the rest of C)

 

[Ortheore]

Skarm to A+ (i would say its top 5 or 6 of GSC)
Tyranitar to A+ (maybe keep it in A tho, but TTar is a huge threat both offensively and defensively)
Miltank to A- (not as good as the other A mons)
Machamp to A (one of the greatest GSC threats, a ton of teams are Machamp weak, especially with Starm being so easy to lure, it deserves A at least)
Umbreon to A- (its better than the other B mons)
Dragonite to A- (can wall more than half of the tier easily and is a big threat with a mixed set)
Smeargle to C+ (I think that Quag, Zard, P2, Kan, Don and Tenta are better than Smeargle. In fact I would move all those 6 mons to B because they are all amazing mons and I would merge C+ and C)
Alakazam C (much better than the rest of D+)
Sandslash and Piloswine to D+ (they are worse then the rest of C)

Fair call on Tank, Umb and Champ.
Regarding TTar/Skarm/Dnite I'd like to see more reasoning or other ppl chiming in. As it stands I'm not sure Dnite/Skarm's flaws are adequately mitigated to the point where they are justified to rise, while TTar obviously contributes in a lot of areas while being great at none.

Pilo and Slash can drop I guess, but I disagree with Zam rising. What does this even do? It has a lot of interesting tools but lacks the bulk/typing to make it work, while its stats suggest a potent special attacker but its coverage is so poor it's ineffective at that as well. I think it fits the description of D rank better than C, which is why I put it there. In all honesty I'd rather add another sub-rank to D and shuffle things around a bit than bump it up to C.

I personally think Baton Pass is immensely threatening, albeit a little inconsistent which is why Smeargle is B. What's probably more interesting is practically the entirety of C+ being where it is. This ultimately stems from the criteria I've used for B/C rank as I feel C rank is a more appropriate description of these pokemon. They can be very good with the right support but it's tough to see them fitting on a lot of teams and overall they just don't have the impact many in B have. They're the kind of things that you can build a capable team around, but otherwise you're likely to never see them and they really do require extensive support to be effective.

Yeah, I'm placing a lot of importance on the way I've worded descriptions for each rank so that's something.

 

[M Dragon]

C Rank- These Pokemon have a decent niche within the tier but also suffer from significant flaws, which can make them difficult to use effectively. Though they may have some potential, they are generally rare sights in high level matches.

Definitely not P2, Clefable, Quag, Rhydon or Tenta, especially when you have Smeargle, Espeon and Muk in C (all 3 are less common and worse overall)


About Alakazam, Encore is huge, especially in Toxic Stalls, and it has the bulk to wall a lot of mixed sweepers and encoring some set uppers. A pokemon I have used in toxic stall teams with big success.
It is definitely better than Jynx for example (C ranked mon)

 

[Ortheore]

Ok I guess Zam can rise.

Comparisons to Muk and Espeon are very valid points. Now that I'm looking at it B rank as a whole seems something of an aberration. I feel like a few pokemon such as Dnite and Jolteon are significantly better than most of B rank, but not quite A calibre, while splitting up B into two ranks for so few pokemon also seems silly. I might drop A- down to B+, reword a few things and go from there. I'll also save a copy of the current list so if we want to revert we can

Edit: Done. Added E rank as a repository for pokemon that are kinda terrible but might be fun to try in a friendly context. Rewrote descriptions for B, C, D rank so that they are generally more positive. Dumped A- down to B, split the old B rank in two- some became B-, the rest got dumped in C. The old C/D+/D ranks all got shifted down.

Edit2: Does Blissey look right in B-?

Also what are everyone's thoughts on C rank- is it worth splitting up? There may be a divide there, I'm not sure since I'm not too familiar with a lot of the pokemon ranked there. For instance, I'm kinda thinking maybe Don is better than a few of the pokemon ranked there, but I'm not comfortable sorting them all out. Or it could just be purely my perspective idk

 

[Isa]

why is gengar a+ while skarmory is a

 

[Ortheore]

I considered Skarm's incredibly passive nature to make it not quite A+ material, while Gengar is generally very threatening while still retaining defensive utility. However if you think Skarm should be ranked alongside Gar and M Dragon thinks it belongs in A+ that's good enough reason for me to bump it

 

[Moon Light]

I think Alakazam deserves a D+/C rank, for his encore in toxic spikes stall teams.
Also Piloswine should be moved to C, he perfectly walls and damages electrics without hp water and does decent damage to snorlax with earthquake.
And Aerodactyl at least D rank, he can perfectly wall and phaze every not thunder lax, even if pretty useless in any other thing

 

[Ortheore]

Zam is already in D+ but I just don't see Zam as on par with a lot of the pokemon in C rank.
Pilo can rise, not sure of C tho. M Dragon argued for it to drop earlier and it's not all that difficult to handle in my experience- waters give it grief, and it tends to be in an awkward position if it doesn't predict right (e.g. Lax entering on IB)
Yeah I guess Aero can rise

 

[magic9mushroom]

I feel like in general you're too high on everything. A decent chunk of A I'd describe as having "minor flaws", and a decent chunk of B I'd describe as having "flaws that make them difficult to use".

My list would be like

A+
Cloyster - yes, it is THAT big; usage stats usually go lax > cloy > electrics for a reason

A
Exeggutor
Gengar
Skarmory
Steelix
Vaporeon
(maybe Tyranitar?)

B+
Machamp
Marowak
Miltank
Nidoking
Suicune
(Tyranitar, if not A)
(maybe Forretress/Misdreavus?)

B
Heracross
Jolteon
Starmie
Umbreon
(Forretress and/or Misdreavus, if not B+)

C, D
idk

Or tone down the hype on As and Bs. I dunno, I just feel like Suicune is definitely a

"These Pokemon are generally good choices in the tier, capable of fulfilling a given role effectively. They see regular usage within the tier and may help to shape the meta, although they do suffer from some minor flaws"

and Blissey is definitely a

"These Pokemon have a decent niche within the tier and may pose a significant threat with the right support. Despite this, they possess some flaws that can sometimes make them difficult to use. Overall they are relevant threats that are seen occasionally in high level play.".

but they're mostly in the right order.

 

[Talenheim]

usage stats usually go lax > cloy > electrics for a reason

Eh, I'd say that's less due to Cloy's viability and more due to the fact that the electrics are two Pokemon, and their usage stats are therefore split.

Spoiler: my point

| 1 | Snorlax | 58 | 100.0% |
| 2 | Cloyster | 31 | 53.45% |
| 3 | Zapdos | 29 | 50.00% |
| 4 | Raikou | 25 | 43.10% |

This effectively means

| 1 | Snorlax | 58 | 100.0% |
| 4 | Electrics | 54 | 93.10% |
| 3 | Cloyster | 31 | 53.45% |

stats from WCoP X

Cloy's otherwise so high because a lot of teams (I'd ballpark 80%) appreciate Spikes support, and Cloyster is generally more splashable than Forry. Definitely A+ material, but shouldn't get an entire subranking to itself. Current A+ is perfectly fine where it is, only possible debate would be Gengar dropping (although I support it in A+).

Due to running Smogon's VR, I'm naturally slightly biased, so I'll keep my opinion short.

Snorlax through B looks fine to me, no comment on Machamp in A.
I'd put P2 and Don in B-, P2 can put in consistent work regardless of the opposing team's comp and takes pressure off your Lax, and spreads para on the same tier as TWave Dos and Stun Spore + Seed Egg. Don loses to egg + waters + HP elecs, but can still pressure the elecs and hit waters neutrally and hardstops firelaxes, (which Lix can't attest to).

Doom doesn't feel right in D+, I know it has little to no presence in tour games but having a stronger pursuit than tar, being able to run crunch, and having sunny day + fblast to break through walls is not D+ material, I'd put it in C.

I actually say that Moltres and Entei should switch places, Entei doesn't hit as hard but gets Solar Beam, which IMO is enough.

Amph in D is hard on my feels (I'd say D+), but I guess that's just personal opinion.

If you're sporting an E rank, at least mention Ursaring, has enough survivability with Restalk + curse and hits insanely hard.

 

[magic9mushroom]

Eh, I'd say that's less due to Cloy's viability and more due to the fact that the electrics are two Pokemon, and their usage stats are therefore split.

Spoiler: my point

| 1 | Snorlax | 58 | 100.0% |
| 2 | Cloyster | 31 | 53.45% |
| 3 | Zapdos | 29 | 50.00% |
| 4 | Raikou | 25 | 43.10% |

This effectively means

| 1 | Snorlax | 58 | 100.0% |
| 4 | Electrics | 54 | 93.10% |
| 3 | Cloyster | 31 | 53.45% |

stats from WCoP X

I know that, which is why I didn't claim Cloy was better than the Electrics.

Cloy's otherwise so high because a lot of teams (I'd ballpark 80%) appreciate Spikes support, and Cloyster is generally more splashable than Forry. Definitely A+ material, but shouldn't get an entire subranking to itself. Current A+ is perfectly fine where it is, only possible debate would be Gengar dropping (although I support it in A+).

Cloyster does something fantastic better than anything else can do it, to the extent that the majority of teams run it. None of the other A+ mons can claim that; each of them is basically locked into one archetype or the other (Skarm in stall, Egg and Gar in offense).

Snorlax through B looks fine to me

If the descriptions were less glowing, I might agree with you. But Suicune certainly has flaws (terrible matchups against the top 3), and Blissey's (doesn't bring much defensively in Snorlax/Raikou tier; Light Screen isn't very useful because insert Snorlax here) and Heracross' (most teams run either Skarm or Zapdos; it can't do much about either) flaws absolutely make them hard to use.

Remember also that PP tiers based on these lists, so where the lines are drawn really matters.

 

[Ortheore]

I actually don't mind m9m's suggestion to put Cloy in its own rank. Between here and smogon, ppl always disagree about the placement of the other pokemon, but never Cloy. Furthermore, Spikes are just that good and Cloy is far better than Forry at virtually everything. I honestly can't help but compare them to the electrics here, with the difference being that things are skewed even more in favour of one over the other.

Also I don't think the descriptions are particularly glowing? Ok maybe A, so I tweaked it very slightly, but I don't see an issue with B. That said, I'm not opposed to dropping Blissey. I mean, yes it brings relatively unique support in the form of Heal Bell, but it's a doormat for Lax, and more of a nuisance than a serious threat. Cune I'm not so sure about- yes it's shredded by electrics but it's a decent response to a lot of pokemon in A, and capable of spreading Toxic and spikes shuffling.

As for Talen's noms, I can see P2 rising, it's a little more versatile and better at supporting the team than the rest of C. I disagree with Don tho, it's just not good enough as too many things beat it

I think Doom is fine where it is, it contributes nothing defensively, it's only a little stronger than TTar in terms of special attacking and I think Sun+FBlast just isn't all it's cracked up to be tbh. Also I'm a big fan of Moltres, its raw power is a huge deal as it doesn't really need Sunny Day to dent stuff like Lax.

I just don't see any good reason for using Amphy tbh so I don't agree here either

I'll add in Ursaring

 

[magic9mushroom]

Cune I'm not so sure about- yes it's shredded by electrics but it's a decent response to a lot of pokemon in A, and capable of spreading Toxic and spikes shuffling.

You're quite right. Which means it fits this description:

"These Pokemon are generally good choices in the tier, capable of fulfilling a given role effectively. They see regular usage within the tier and may help to shape the meta, although they do suffer from some minor flaws"

(also, it's basically on a level with Miltank IMO)

And I mean if we were to accept this meta as 1U (which doesn't seem likely, admittedly), I'd balk at Bliss/Nite/Hera being considered 1U. They're kinda out-there options. But if they're in B they can't even be voted on.

 

[Ortheore]

js it doesn't have to be C that we vote on, it depends on what feels right for the tier (for instance a gen 6 ranking thread can have pokemon in B+ that might not be considered 1U or w/e). So in this case I would definitely nominate B- to be voted on

Personally I think in general your changes aren't too bad there's a few I disagree with (TTar is definitely A), not sure how Vap compares to Nido etc, but overall not too bad. However it's a very drastic change and I'd want some other ppl to comment before I make that change

 

[Jame$ G]

Pretty much on the money with all of that, personally I'd put Tyranitar & Nidoking in A+, there's a very broad spectrum of pokes that they just hands down beat toe to toe, I certainly wouldn't rank Cloyster and Exeggutor above them, Nidoking beats both despite having the type disadvantage. I also feel Victreebell deseves a place somewhere, even if only the E slot.

 

[Jame$ G]

Kinda surprised Tauros didn't make the cut anywhere either?

 

[magic9mushroom]

Pretty much on the money with all of that, personally I'd put Tyranitar & Nidoking in A+, there's a very broad spectrum of pokes that they just hands down beat toe to toe, I certainly wouldn't rank Cloyster and Exeggutor above them, Nidoking beats both despite having the type disadvantage. I also feel Victreebell deseves a place somewhere, even if only the E slot.

Leftovers Exeggutor Psychic vs. Leftovers Nidoking: 275 - 324 (75.3 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
Leftovers Nidoking Ice Beam vs. Leftovers Exeggutor: 161 - 190 (41 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers

Thunder Nidoking doesn't beat Egg, though Fire Blast Nidoking usually does (Blizzard is <50% to hit twice).

Moreover, beating a Pokemon 1v1 doesn't mean you're as good as it. Raikou is better than Marowak despite being OHKOed in the 1v1.

 

[Jame$ G]

That's only really relevant if you don't have Lovely Kiss on Nidoking, or have already slept something, you wont beat it 1 on 1 unless you get lucky, and your Marowak analogy favours Marowaks typing. Nidoking beats Raikou too btw and Marowak doesn't beat Cloyster which king does..

 

[Ortheore]

What does Bel do better than Venu? I honestly don't see it, besides the ATK and stun spore. When Venu has better bulk and Bel has an awkward time fitting stun spore onto its set?

As for Tauros, idk, I guess it could go in E rank? I would ask why one would use it, but fast normal is reasonably unique, and as it stands E rank is filled with pokemon that are terrible but kinda oddballish enough to be vaguely interesting. Not to mention that I ranked Ursa, and its niche is "shitty CurseLax with slightly better ATK stat"