GSC Ubers Viability Rankings

[Ortheore]

I'm inexperienced and therefore far from an expert at this tier, so there are probably like a billion things wrong with this list, but at least it's up! Feel free to post any changes you think should be made, just make sure you provide some reasoning =]

S Rank- These Pokemon are formidable threats to the point where they define the meta. They possess incredible offensive and defensive capabilities and should be considered for almost every team.

Mew

Mewtwo

Snorlax

A Rank- These Pokemon are excellent choices in the tier. They are very effective in their roles such that they are extremely common sights in high level matches and they help shape the tier without dominating it.

Celebi

Forretress

Lugia

Raikou

Steelix

Zapdos

B Rank- These Pokemon are generally capable of performing a specific role, though they do suffer from some flaws and may possess a smaller niche than higher ranked Pokemon. Nonetheless, they are regular sights within the tier.

Blissey

Cloyster

Golem

Ho-oh

Jolteon

Skarmory

Tyranitar

Umbreon

C Rank- These Pokemon have a decent niche within the tier but also suffer from significant flaws, which can make them difficult to use effectively. Though they are still capable options, they are usually only seen occasionally.

Exeggutor

Gengar

Marowak

Miltank

Misdreavus

Muk

Rhydon

D Rank- These Pokemon are generally quite difficult to use effectively, whether due to large flaws, inconsistency or a limited niche. They are rare sights in high level matches.

Heracross

Scizor

Smeargle

Vaporeon

 

[Enigami]

I'd like to nominate Lanturn for C Rank. Thunder Wave + Confuse Ray gives it parafusion, Water/Electric typing walls non-Earthquake Lugia/Ho-Oh, STAB Surf/Hydro Pump and 67 base speed keep Ground-types from ever wanting to switch in, and it does a pretty great job of spreading paralysis. I personally prefer to run it with slow powerhouses such as Tyranitar and Marowak, so that they can benefit from getting the first move after Lanturn's done its job.

So far in the GSC Ubers tournament, Lanturn has been a major player in each game I've used it and my Lanturn team hasn't lost me a game yet.

Right now I'm also looking into a number of other Pokemon that look like they may have decent niches in GSC Ubers, after they're tested more thoroughly expect more unranked->ranked nominations.

 

[Jorgen]

Edits in blue bold

I'm inexperienced and therefore far from an expert at this tier, so there are probably like a billion things wrong with this list, but at least it's up! Feel free to post any changes you think should be made, just make sure you provide some reasoning =]

S Rank- These Pokemon are formidable threats to the point where they define the meta. They possess incredible offensive and defensive capabilities and should be considered for almost every team.

Lugia

Mew

Mewtwo

Snorlax

Seems okay to me

A Rank- These Pokemon are excellent choices in the tier. They are very effective in their roles such that they are extremely common sights in high level matches and they help shape the tier without dominating it.

Celebi

Golem lol no

Ho-oh

Raikou

Steelix

Zapdos

B Rank- These Pokemon are generally capable of performing a specific role, though they do suffer from some flaws and may possess a smaller niche than higher ranked Pokemon. Nonetheless, they are regular sights within the tier.

Gengar Ubers are too bulky for Gengar to be able to do anything.

Jolteon

Miltank

Rhydon why are you so high on grounds? They do not have good enough stats to play with the big boys of Ubers.

Umbreon

C Rank- These Pokemon have a decent niche within the tier but also suffer from significant flaws, which can make them difficult to use effectively. Though they are still capable options, they are usually only seen occasionally.

Blissey ++ C seems low for Bliss.

Exeggutor

Forretress ++ Maybe even A rank for this guy, Spikes are the difference between Mewtwo/Mew getting the KO on Lax and getting LK'd/blown up on

Heracross

Houndoom Houndoom just is not good enough stats-wise. Decent niche in theory, but it just can't take any hits.

Marowak Same as Houndoom; stats just aren't there.

Skarmory

Tyranitar ++ Probably a B ranker tbh

D Rank- These Pokemon are generally quite difficult to use effectively, whether due to large flaws, inconsistency or a limited niche. They are rare sights in high level matches.

Cloyster

Misdreavus++ Missy should probably be C rank

Scizor

Smeargle

Vaporeon

Where's my boy Muk?
[/S][/S]

 

[Enigami]

Disagree with Marowak dropping, with paralysis support it tears things apart. Also disagree on removing Gol/don. While I agree they might be ranked too highly, I've used Rhydon and it was okay enough, and Golem (haven't used it myself yet) is a somewhat weaker Rhydon but with Explosion. Steelix would straight up outclass them if it wasn't for its Fire weakness, but because of that I think both the Ground/Rocks do have a notable niche.

I support Tyranitar for B though, plus as I've mentioned elsewhere, it also can drop speed to the point -1 Lugia can't stop it from phazing if you want to run Roar.

 

[Ortheore]

I think it's fair to say that I was overrating the rocks a bit, I'll drop them both a rank. However I definitely think they are viable, their types are actually really cool imo, with Flying, Electric and Fire being relevant resistances to have. Offensively they're unspectacular but hit hard enough to pull their weight as well as being usable Cursers. And of course Golem has Explosion.

Gengar drops too, though again I think it could be usable thanks its speed and interesting movepool. While it's not breaking any walls anytime soon, it's coverage is enough to create free turns for something else, while sleep and boom are great things to have. That said, outside non-EQ Lax (which is admittedly more abundant) I'm not sure what its defensive niche is.

Bliss can rise, my initial rationale was that is just so inept offensively that is just outclassed by CeleTank, but with less Rest around status can be even more useful.

Forre can rise, not sure about A rank tho, in my experience thus far spikes haven't been as big a deal as they are in OU

Agree on Doom/TTar. Agree with Enigami on Wak, heavily support-dependent but its immense power can be worth it.

I'm curious, what does Missy even do? It seems like a classic case of not having enough stats, while it's not as though ubers lacks for phazers, and generally not exploitable ones either. I'll take your word for it tho.

Lanturn and Muk to C I guess, a little unsure on Lanturn tho

 

[Mr.378]

I legitimately feel like the rocks are actually really good in the tier and definitely worth ranking. They have a perfect typing for the tier really and have the stats to do what they need to do and tank hits from most things because of how rare and easily their weaknesses are. They do enough that I feel that they really deserve at least B and I feel like Rhydon is at least around as good as Lix is. Maybe it's been because it's been working really well for me but I do feel like they are very good. I do need more testing with Golem I will admit but on paper he does everything Rhydon does but with different stats and Explosion which I feel is worth something.

Addition to this: Reflecting on my reasoning I'll admit I overrate the rock/grounds a bit. I still feel like their B-Rank Worthy but A does seem a tad high for them. I'll go into more detail in it when I actually update my list though.

The rest of it feels relatively fine. I made my list more as a rough draft of my experiences with the tier + what I felt may or may not be usable at all. I'll probably update it in a bit to reflect a few things and elaborate on them then. One thing I would like to bring up is dropping Ho-oh to B. It may seem weird to request this but I feel like it is warranted. The thing never really does anything except sit and recover and throw a sacred fire until it runs out and eventually dies which is common because of Sacred Fire's limited 8 PP along with it having a terrible defensive typing that just about anything in the tier can hit. Furthermore Sacredd Fire, Ho-oh's main draw, is actually pretty weak and the burns it spreads usually don't even affect much because most teams carry 1 or 2 good switch in's to it without trying. Any Curselax with Rest can soak them pretty well and just heal it off later, Celebi can come in later in the game and Heal Bell them off, the Electrics and just tank them just fine and can scare Ho-oh off and rest up whenever and the list kind of goes on. All of this makes me question Ho-oh's place as an A-Rank in the current list.

 

[Disaster Area]

@Mr.378 thoughts on forretress/cloyster? Jorgen and Jame$ G are relatively big fans of spikes, but I've heard you describe it as something you think is bad?

 

[Mr.378]

I was going to talk more about that in a bit but Forry is actually okay. I still think spikes aren't that good but Forry can at least check most mews which is actually pretty nice. I'll probably rise it to B on my own list at least.

 

[M Dragon]

I'm inexperienced and therefore far from an expert at this tier, so there are probably like a billion things wrong with this list, but at least it's up! Feel free to post any changes you think should be made, just make sure you provide some reasoning =]

S Rank- These Pokemon are formidable threats to the point where they define the meta. They possess incredible offensive and defensive capabilities and should be considered for almost every team.

Lugia

Mew

Mewtwo

Snorlax

A Rank- These Pokemon are excellent choices in the tier. They are very effective in their roles such that they are extremely common sights in high level matches and they help shape the tier without dominating it.

Celebi

Ho-oh

Raikou

Steelix

Zapdos

B Rank- These Pokemon are generally capable of performing a specific role, though they do suffer from some flaws and may possess a smaller niche than higher ranked Pokemon. Nonetheless, they are regular sights within the tier.

Blissey

Forretress

Golem Should be C at best

Jolteon Should be C at best

Miltank It can Heal Bell AND wall Lugia (unless crit) at the same time, but this should be D

Tyranitar

Umbreon

C Rank- These Pokemon have a decent niche within the tier but also suffer from significant flaws, which can make them difficult to use effectively. Though they are still capable options, they are usually only seen occasionally.

Exeggutor

Gengar Should be D. It does nothing, everything in ubers is too bulky

Heracross D is probably better. A tier where Zapdos, Skarm, Lugia and Ho-Oh are everywhere is not nice for Heracross

Lanturn Should be unranked. Cant even 3hko Lugia and Ho-Oh with Tbolt and they can just set up while stalling its t-bolts / thunders. And yeah theres also lax eveywhere.

Marowak

Misdreavus

Muk

Rhydon

Skarmory Should be B

D Rank- These Pokemon are generally quite difficult to use effectively, whether due to large flaws, inconsistency or a limited niche. They are rare sights in high level matches.

Cloyster

Houndoom Unranked. Crunch only has a 10% of 3hkoing Lugia, and every uber can kill it and is faster than it or walls Houndoom completely

Scizor

Smeargle

Vaporeon

 

[Ortheore]

ok some cool stuff.

I'll go ahead and drop both Hera and Gengar, Doom can be unranked since there's enough support and reasoning for it (although not every uber murders it -> Celebi). I'll also drop Lanturn to D for now, but I'd rather not unrank it until I see how @Enigami responds to M Dragon- Lanturn's got a neat set of resistances and parafusion support can spread paralysis (duh) and also create opportunities for other stuff. On the other hand as has been said, its attacking power is almost negligible while Snorlax is a big fat block to para spreading endeavours.

Regarding Mr 378's proposal to drop Ho-oh, I disagree as there's actually very little that enjoys taking burns. Electrics don't mind and clerics are a thing but beyond that there's not a whole lot as most things are either mixed or physical. Lax isn't a good argument here because if burned it is useless until rested off, and even then sleeping Lax is so much easier to pressure. Firebird does also have plenty of other tools in its arsenal so it can potentially be more of a threat than Sacred Fire spammer.

Regarding Gol/Tank dropping, I guess I'd like to see some discussion here. Golem has useful resistances, coupled with Curse, Roar, boom and ok dual STAB (Rock Slide isn't as powerful as you'd like) which is why I think it's not too bad. Tank is confusing since you say good things about it, then say it should drop lol. I guess it's because role compression aside it's outclassed? I'm not strongly opposed to either of them dropping, it's just that I like for there to be some reasoning to it

Normally I'd like for more discussion on moving Skarm/Jolt around as well, since there really ought to be some reasoning, but the more I think on it, the more I realise that it's fair that their ranks change. I think I was seriously overrating the potential of bp (growth in particular), while I was similarly overrating the impact of Skarm's total lack of offensive presence when it is so good defensively. So I've gone ahead and made those changes.

What are your thoughts? If you disagree with any of these changes let me know. Also if you've got your own changes.

 

[Enigami]

Lanturn: Should be unranked. Cant even 3hko Lugia and Ho-Oh with Tbolt and they can just set up while stalling its t-bolts / thunders. And yeah theres also lax eveywhere.

Completely untrue:
Lanturn Thunder vs. Lugia: 159-188 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lanturn Thunder vs. Ho-Oh: 159-188 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Paralysis alone can cause Lugia and Ho-Oh to miss the crucial recovery turn and get KO'd, not to mention parafusion. Honestly, its a plus if they try to set up when they can easily get themselves KO'd. Snorlax isn't that much of a problem, since T-Wave + Confuse Ray makes it REALLY difficult for Snorlax to move and makes it much easier for any of your own Snorlax checks or counters to come in. It also outspeeds all relevant Ground and Rock types in the tier and inflicts massive damage with its Water STAB, if not straight up OHKOing them. Its offensive presence is lacking, true, but its not non-existent.

To me though, its main use is to be paired with Swords Dancers such as Mew and Marowak and use Parafusion to help spread paralysis and create setup opportunities. And from my experience, it is really good at doing just that. Considering M Dragon's factually wrong statements regarding Pokemon (best seen here), I'm going to recommend it stays in C Rank unless others want it dropped. Its better than everything in D and isn't worse than the other C Ranks.

If Gengar is D rank, then so is Misdreavus. Gengar has great speed + sleep, roughly the same bulk as Misdreavus, and it can still KO things Destiny Bond or finish things off with its coverage. There's also quite a bit that can be KO'd with an attack followed by Explosion, including the Mews. Plus immunity to boom + Toxic is always nice to have.

Can't really comment on the others, haven't really used them enough. Miltank dropping to D doesn't seem right to me though. For Houndoom, I think an Endure + Reversal set could put in better results than just Fire + Dark STAB, especially since it could actually do serious damage to Rocks and Normals. I don't know how well it would work, but theoretically it should work better than in OU with spikes being less prevalent.

 

[M Dragon]

Lanturn: Should be unranked. Cant even 3hko Lugia and Ho-Oh with Tbolt and they can just set up while stalling its t-bolts / thunders. And yeah theres also lax eveywhere.

Completely untrue:
Lanturn Thunder vs. Lugia: 159-188 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lanturn Thunder vs. Ho-Oh: 159-188 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Paralysis alone can cause Lugia and Ho-Oh to miss the crucial recovery turn and get KO'd, not to mention parafusion. Honestly, its a plus if they try to set up when they can easily get themselves KO'd. Snorlax isn't that much of a problem, since T-Wave + Confuse Ray makes it REALLY difficult for Snorlax to move and makes it much easier for any of your own Snorlax checks or counters to come in. It also outspeeds all relevant Ground and Rock types in the tier and inflicts massive damage with its Water STAB, if not straight up OHKOing them. Its offensive presence is lacking, true, but its not non-existent.

To me though, its main use is to be paired with Swords Dancers such as Mew and Marowak and use Parafusion to help spread paralysis and create setup opportunities. And from my experience, it is really good at doing just that. Considering M Dragon's factually wrong statements regarding Pokemon (best seen here), I'm going to recommend it stays in C Rank unless others want it dropped. Its better than everything in D and isn't worse than the other C Ranks.

If Gengar is D rank, then so is Misdreavus. Gengar has great speed + sleep, roughly the same bulk as Misdreavus, and it can still KO things Destiny Bond or finish things off with its coverage. There's also quite a bit that can be KO'd with an attack followed by Explosion, including the Mews. Plus immunity to boom + Toxic is always nice to have.

Can't really comment on the others, haven't really used them enough. Miltank dropping to D doesn't seem right to me though. For Houndoom, I think an Endure + Reversal set could put in better results than just Fire + Dark STAB, especially since it could actually do serious damage to Rocks and Normals. I don't know how well it would work, but theoretically it should work better than in OU with spikes being less prevalent.

??
I said tbolt not thunder XD. You have less than a 5% chance to kill lugia with Thunder if its at 100%, gl with that. And there's also celebi, a very common mon that can always heal bell the paras.
Paralysis is always a great strat in gsc, but there are much better users than Lanturn, and with celebi being very common it is not that good

On a second thought ggar could stay on C

About Miltank: it is an inferior Celebi as a heal beller and an inferior Umbreon as a growler. Its only useful if you need a cleric that beats celebi or if you need a growler and a cleric at the same time.

 

[Ortheore]

I went ahead and popped Gar back in C, as well as dropping Miltank to C. Gar because with Hypnosis/Destiny Bond/Boom it can accomplish stuff. It may not be able to break much despite its coverage, but I'm not sure it's that easy to set up on either. Tank because we have some good reasoning for why it should drop, role compression isn't enough of a reason to keep it so high when Celebi and Umbreon are much better at its individual roles

Also I don't think EndRev anything is viable in ubers js, way too many walls

 

[Isa]

lol lanturn

we're talking about a set that stalls - not beats - pokémon that are weak to it if they don't run common coverage, carries no recovery, no utility beyond status that is completely forgettable in Celebi tier - a Pokémon it can't touch -, often fails to 4HKO Mew/Mewtwo with its 70% accurate move, cannot take a non-resisted physical hit...if you want an electric type that beats lugia, ho-oh, actually deals some kind of damage to snorlax and celebi, stops ground types from switching in freely, can fit in resttalk in its moveset and STILL has access to thunder wave if you feel that it is badly required, i recommend zapdos. you're worse off vs. golem, rhydon, tyranitar and EQ-less Ho-Oh, in exchange for being better vs. lugia, mew, mewtwo, snorlax (no, parafusion doesn't give you bonus points), celebi, ho-oh with EQ, steelix (unless boom is scrapped - zapdos doesn't take damage from EQ at all!), and opposing zapdos. that's just going through the S/A-ranks.

drop lanturn and use zapdos instead

 

[Isa]

ho-oh for b rank

destroyed by snorlax and zapdos and is more or less deadweight in those matchups, and every team should have at least one of those (snorlax)


forretress for a- or b+ because spikes are really hot, toxic+boom is good utility and hp bug hits a lot of things super effectively if you wish, also a great set of resistances

 

[Ortheore]

ho-oh for b rank

destroyed by snorlax and zapdos and is more or less deadweight in those matchups, and every team should have at least one of those (snorlax)


forretress for a- or b+ because spikes are really hot, toxic+boom is good utility and hp bug hits a lot of things super effectively if you wish, also a great set of resistances

Yeah in the wake of my matches against you I am definitely implementing those changes

 

[Isa]

not a ranking post per se but why do people think zapdos needs to run resttalk in this tier? if you run it as your sole mew check then yeah i can maybe see it...but then again no, because thunder is a 3hko which mew can heal off and stall for misses while setting up and 2hkoing with shadow ball already at +4.

however, more or less all teams carry lugia. pretend that you're forced to rest vs. something like ho-oh, idk, and you take a 30% hit before switching out. opposing lugia comes in and uses curse as you switch to zapper, attacks twice, and...
+1 Lugia Aeroblast vs. Zapdos: 85-100 (22.1 - 26.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
there's also potential steelixes and celebis that offer comfortable wake ups, as well as a host of lower ranked pokémon

seriously lugia without ice beam is just too easy to wake up/get leftovers on, i think that if you so wish you can easily drop sleep talk. heal bell is also a thing...

i think people make zapdos sleep talk because they don't want to spend more time thinking about it. you're not absorbing snorlax's lovely kiss either way

someone state the merits of stalk pls

 

[magic9mushroom]

someone state the merits of stalk pls

Discouraging Lugia from staying in, Whirlwinding you and getting Spikes damage on something (Zapdos' Spikes immunity makes this less relevant than otherwise, and Spikes aren't as huge in Ubers as in OU, but still).

Getting damage/status on whatever switches in while you're asleep (because yes Zapdos walls Aeroblast, ergo you're more concerned about the incoming (or double-switched) Steelix/Snorlax/Mewtwo/whatever; obviously only HP Water Zapdos gains from Sleep Talk vs. Steelix but it always runs Thunder which kinda bothers Snorlax and Mewtwo; Mewtwo/Mew don't like Thunder Wave either and getting a Reflect off as Lax/Lix come in is nice).

Speaking of Mewtwo, potentially evading the 3HKO from Psychic via Sleep Talked Rest (yes, I know you've got other Pokemon to deal with Mewtwo, but not being as pressured is still good).

And if it is IB Lugia, obviously it's a huge help.

That's pretty much all I can think of.



Why's Jolt so low? I mean, it still takes Aeroblast decently, and unlike Raikou it's got Growth to actually threaten the PsychoCats beyond paralysis and not get utterly walled by Celebi.

 

[Ortheore]

I'm with Isa on this one, I'd much rather be running something that isn't Sleep Talk on Zap, since the things it walls it doesn't need for STalk for. Not that it's unviable, just I don't think it's as good.

With Jolt I honestly don't remember why I agreed with M Dragon on this one. I think it was to do with mediocre bulk and baton pass being a bit difficult to pull off. Defensively it's good against non-EQ Lugia and that's it, even Ho-oh does a tidy chunk to it. Meanwhile I felt there were a lot of pokemon that could either interrupt bp or just exploit Jolteon when compared to the number of opportunities it gets. I mean I could see it in B, but I'm fine either way.

 

[magic9mushroom]

I was more thinking of simple GrowthJolt with Rest than BP sets (though GrowthPass to Mewtwo looks plausible). It can also come in on Zapdos and Raikou, not just WW Lugia (though Roar Raikou will obviously just Roar it back out). Growth makes it more threatening than the legendary Electrics.

I get that Sleep Talk might not be worth it, it was just that Isa asked for someone to list its merits so I did.