I think i'd put Lovely Kiss on lax, just cuz it needs a sleeper & Explosion on Cloyster because it'll give this team more confidence to kill lax or quickly switch the tempo up if you find yourself in a tight spot.
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GSC OU This is the best gsc team I've used.
- Thread starter Roostur
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I like it. Lovely kiss bd lax is the best though. Lovely kiss bd lax just wrecks teams. It is just so good. It'll flat out just win you games some times. But this set is good. It lets you belly drum easier. It beats miltank and umbreon easy. It can also kill curse skarmory, and non curse skarmory is just useless against it. Also because you have curse you don't always have to be at full health to feel comfortable belly drumming against certain pokes.
I wasn't a pokemon player back in the day, but because I hear it was stall dominated it gives me the impression that we have regressed overall in terms of optimal play. Obviously there aren't as many players and a lot of players have quit and we just have to accept it will never be as popular and the competition will never be as stacked. In any game that has a scene that dies off for the most part, there is going to be a loss in the skill it takes to win. I imagine there were more people striving to be the best back then and they were pushing each other to play the game the best it could be played. It'd be interesting to see how the meta would change if every tournament had a thousand dollars on the line.
Oh this was a couple of years ago on p.o.
Slowbro - Toxic, flame thrower, rest, growl
Raikou- thunderbolt, reflect, crunch, rest
Blissey- growl, toxic, soft boiled, heal
Forretress- rest, reflect, spikes, toxic
donphan- earthquake, roar, rapid spin, rest
suicune- roar, surf, rest, toxic
after going to many different old websites I've found that this was Celia's main team. I think this guy is a genius. This player is my pkemon gsc inspiration. I really would love to optimize this team and replace some pokes but I love the idea here. I really think this game can be broken by making a defensive team so bulky that if you have the patience and the know-how you can win every time. The way I see pokemon gsc at its peak, if it were to ever get there, is playing bulky teams with no excessive offense. Only put offense where it is absolutely needed. After that it is just a matter of making sure you can keep spikes down so there is not an infinite stall war. The first person to make the best team to do this will become the best player of all time. And after experimenting a little I'm actually starting to believe that snorlax might not be on that perfect team. When you stop thinking about how to win at this game and instead think about how to not lose you start seeing the game a lot differently.
Raikou- thunderbolt, reflect, crunch, rest
Blissey- growl, toxic, soft boiled, heal
Forretress- rest, reflect, spikes, toxic
donphan- earthquake, roar, rapid spin, rest
suicune- roar, surf, rest, toxic
after going to many different old websites I've found that this was Celia's main team. I think this guy is a genius. This player is my pkemon gsc inspiration. I really would love to optimize this team and replace some pokes but I love the idea here. I really think this game can be broken by making a defensive team so bulky that if you have the patience and the know-how you can win every time. The way I see pokemon gsc at its peak, if it were to ever get there, is playing bulky teams with no excessive offense. Only put offense where it is absolutely needed. After that it is just a matter of making sure you can keep spikes down so there is not an infinite stall war. The first person to make the best team to do this will become the best player of all time. And after experimenting a little I'm actually starting to believe that snorlax might not be on that perfect team. When you stop thinking about how to win at this game and instead think about how to not lose you start seeing the game a lot differently.
Drumlax with a fire move is an issue for this team. The calcs suggest that Forry can rest loop the EQ or mono variant barring crits. Otherwise, Drumlax with Double Edge gets by everything else. Drumlax with Return is reliant on rolls and spikes. And then it's off to the races to see who heals up to repeat the process. With Belly Drum PP being 16 and Heal Bell PP being 8, I don't see a long term solution to this particular lax set.
I played with the team before and I can tell you that it is far from perfect. Some things about it need to be changed but you have to understand that it is a very old team that was used in a different meta and before the electrics were allowed to have hidden power ice and water which made pokes like donphan a lot better than he is now.
Also, drum lax is just a problem for every team. Not specifically just this one. The only "counter" pokemon to drum lax is reflect haze dragonite, and in my opinion that poke with that set sucks. It alwaysssss dies to a crit. It's whole goal is to be a wall but it WILL get critted and it WILL die. So the only counter to drum lax is just keeping it from being at full health.
I absolutely agree man Assassin Celia is hands down the best Gen2 player out there, I don't think any GSCer worth their weight who was unfortunate enough to face him back in the day would disagree. It isn't just his teams that sets him apart from the rest, its how he uses them and his extraordinary ability to predict how every move of the game is going to go from turn 1. I fought against this team a few times back in the day, I even managed to beat him twice (not that that matters but i'm not turning down an opportunity to spit bragging rights on that lol). Before you get too hung up on the in depth analysis of this team there's a few things I should mention here:
1. This was from the pre PCNY moves era, and that changes a lot of things. No growtheons so simply walling specials with Blissey was a much more common practise back then. Snorlax was infinitely easier to defend against before it had Lovely Kiss. No special attention was needed for Nidoking as he didn't have a sleep move either.
2. Curse was banned on Snorlax. Yet Belly Drum wasn't lol. This means no strategy needed for curselaxs or sleep laxes which radically changes team structures & strategies.
3. Hidden power legendaries were also banned in that era; that combined with point 2. seemed to manifest itself as Donphan being on almost every team as well as ground types in general being overpowered. As soon as the Curselax & HP legendaries ban was rescinded Donphan pretty much disappeared.
4. Sleep Perish trap was not banned giving enormous demand for that Crunchtalk Raikou, on top of the fact it was disallowed from carrying Hidden Power.
Just some things to think about as i'd imagine Celia himself would tell you that team would not be overly suitable or competitive in the current Gen 2 metagame.
1. This was from the pre PCNY moves era, and that changes a lot of things. No growtheons so simply walling specials with Blissey was a much more common practise back then. Snorlax was infinitely easier to defend against before it had Lovely Kiss. No special attention was needed for Nidoking as he didn't have a sleep move either.
2. Curse was banned on Snorlax. Yet Belly Drum wasn't lol. This means no strategy needed for curselaxs or sleep laxes which radically changes team structures & strategies.
3. Hidden power legendaries were also banned in that era; that combined with point 2. seemed to manifest itself as Donphan being on almost every team as well as ground types in general being overpowered. As soon as the Curselax & HP legendaries ban was rescinded Donphan pretty much disappeared.
4. Sleep Perish trap was not banned giving enormous demand for that Crunchtalk Raikou, on top of the fact it was disallowed from carrying Hidden Power.
Just some things to think about as i'd imagine Celia himself would tell you that team would not be overly suitable or competitive in the current Gen 2 metagame.
Actually I must fess up I don't remember him using that slowbro? I'm thinking I saw perish trap Gengar over that? For some reason ice beam over growl on blissey is resonating. Where did you find this out of curiousity?
3 different websites. Neoseeker, Serebii, and this one Board Message . I had to make an account to see that last one. But all three websites posted the same team.
I've also heard borat say that celia liked using slobro
Lol. That is so funny that curse was banned. I WISH snorlax's only used curse. That is a thousand times more easier to deal with than belly drum. It is funny because this team actually deals with curselax pretty well. It has a much harder time dealing with drumlax. The most outdated thing about this team is definitely donphan. He is just not a reliable pokemon anymore thanks to hidden power electrics. He would definitely have to be replaced. Slobro is interesting. I've been using him. I still don't know what my opinion on him is yet.
It was a different mentality of playing, 200+ rounds was pretty much a given. These teams were just stacked with pokes that could survive a +5 return fron lax and be able to out stall/ phaze it, rest, pull out the beller, heal bell and repeat. It was almost like a race timing the rest bell loops, but it worked at rendering snorlax unable to gain ground against anything. You'd have thought belly drum/ double edge lax would be just the thing to break the stall, but for one reason or another you just rarely saw it used or work. I think when you KNOW the only kind of boost lax can pull against you is a drum and it cant sleep you, it changes the methodology to deal with it; you just hit with attacks from bulky pokes you know can tank unboosted hits and that really inhibits the breathing space you need to pull a drum off. So a lax drums, loses what 261 hp, eq from Donphan does say av. 170 hp, thats 431hp off lax's 523, leaving 92hp, (124 after leftovers). Takes 96hp recoil from ko'ing Donphan, leaving lax with 28 hp (64hp after leftovers) to take out a Donphan, and this is assuming it was a fresh lax with no switch in or spikes damage. So basically it just didn't work, it was almost guaranteed to kill your lax and you may as well use selfdestruct instead. Yeah I actually think the no curselax rule just played out to be counter constructive. But thats also how I know this team was designed for that era. Imho it is not designed to handle many things in the current metagame; kisslax, Nidoking, growtheons. Also it was from the stall mentality of "you absolutely dont let a single poke die or the team doesn't function", the aggresive explosion strategies weren't such a big thing. I mean I may well be wrong, you'll have to test it but I can see a lot of things that team cant handle now.
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Though I suspect that slowbro is there purely for dealing with curselax actually, thats probably why I dont remember it. I guess it makes sense to have all your stats stacked away from speed when you still outspeed a cursed lax. Slowbro is actually very bulky.
Yeah actually this team is retrofitted to take curselaxs isn't it, thats what the growl on blissey is all about too.
Yeah actually this team is retrofitted to take curselaxs isn't it, thats what the growl on blissey is all about too.
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He can also be a good machamp counter if machamp isn't using hp bug. I've been testing my own version of this team a little. Nidoking actually hasn't given me problems with this team YET. Suicune deals with him pretty well, especially if you switch out roar for sleep talk. The Rest forretress set can also deal with nidoking pretty well if you absolutely can't send in suicune. Nidoking has to hit thunder four times to kill forretress and some are bound to miss and you can just keep resting.
I guess thats true, and when you factor in Forry its got pretty rounded coverage of all 3 elementals and any pair Nidoking might be carrying. Taking a Thunder para could upset the rythem but not easily I guess. But Nidoking does cash in on forcing a switch; check is brought in as it l.kisses, switch out primary check for Forry as it thunders, then what do you do with Forry? Reflect? As Nidoking is switched out to a zapdos; Thunder from zapdos pretty much puts you in KO range, or does if spikes are down, you're forced to switch out, then Forry is carrying that damage for the next switch in. Raikou wont revenge hit it well with crunch, then at best you have a speed tie with suicune, i'm not sure how well blissey can just stall it as it cant threaten and Nidoking can just freeze spam in response. I don't think that slowbro will stop it. Sleep talk on suicune will solve this but really opens you up to vaporeon set ups; raikou will be the only thing to stop it taking out the entire team.
A jolteon with growth, thunder, hp ice, substitute only needs Donphan to be put to sleep once and it could set up and take out everything. That's kinda the downside of the super defensive, passive teams; it gives the opponent a lot of openings for setups and strategically putting exploders in place.
A jolteon with growth, thunder, hp ice, substitute only needs Donphan to be put to sleep once and it could set up and take out everything. That's kinda the downside of the super defensive, passive teams; it gives the opponent a lot of openings for setups and strategically putting exploders in place.
You said you saw celia use a perish song gengar? Do you know what the exact set was?
Lol that was me with a psuedo name you just went against with that growtheon team. You changed Donphan for dragonite.
Mean look, hypnosis, perish song, protect
I'm pretty sure that was the team I saw. I think the Celia team you cited must be for a sleep trap ban, but curselax allowed. He'd never run reflect over sleep talk on that raikou if there were sleep perish trappers on the prowel.
Mean look, hypnosis, perish song, protect
I'm pretty sure that was the team I saw. I think the Celia team you cited must be for a sleep trap ban, but curselax allowed. He'd never run reflect over sleep talk on that raikou if there were sleep perish trappers on the prowel.
Yeah. Like I said in my earlier post in this thread, dragonite always dies to crits. It is a crit magnet. But at least the team was doing its job until then lol. That is why I put sleep talk on dragonite, but I got double critted anyway lol.
Yeah, actually there were minor differences to the team's move sets depending on what website I was on. On one of the websites reflect was replaced with sleep talk on raikou and for whatever reason toxic on slowbro was replaced with zap cannon with one version of the team. But other than that the move sets were all the same.
What do you think about replacing donphan with gengar?
Haha yeah I was gonna say the problem with that dragonite is it has a crit fetish. I couldn't break the team open as clinically as I was expecting to I must admit, but with these teams once one goes the rest get easier to topple. Sorry I couldn't chat, cant juggle battle & chat on my phone while driving lol.
Gengar over Donphan? Tch hard to say, depends what you want it to do as the sleep trap set is out the question. I think the real question is what does it do for the team? I've been fairly open that i'm not overly convinced its the right approach for the current meta, but to put a ghost there, hmm:
Keep Donphan; you need it for balance & punishing sleeping laxen. Take Slowbro out, some of the following might work:
Gengar: mean look, Thunder, perish song, destiny bond (or could go c.ray or protect over d.bond)
Or, and this would probably be better suited to the all out stall nature of the team;
Misdreavus: Toxic, theif, Thunder, destiny bond.
(I dont see much need for rest as you have a beller)
Though my honest opinion if you're gonna use a team like this it needs some kind of offense strategy, even if just a passive one like having many pokes with Toxic; that'll synergise well with rest belling. Or just focusing on making a perish trapper the key piece I.e. Using the other Pokemon to spread paralysis and offer screen support, then use parafusion perish trap to pick them off.
My old skool back in the day team was; Raikou, Starmie, Donphan, Skarmory, Jynx, Blissey. It was just a typical stall that use Jynx to just pick everything off with sleep perish trap, and it worked ok. If I was going to adapt that team & ideology for modern GSC it would probably look something like this:
Raikou: Reflect, Thunderbolt, HP ice, Rest
Starmie: Rapid Spin, Thunder Wave, Surf, Recover
Snorlax: Curse, Body Slam, Rest, Sleep Talk
Skarmory: Drill Peck, Whirlwind, Rest, (Toxic/Theif/Curse)
Blissey: Light Screen, Sing, Heal Bell, Softboiled
Misdreavus/Gengar: Mean Look, Confuse Ray, Perish Song, Protect
No idea how well that would work in practise but the theory seems functional for a stall team. Hopefully that gives you some ideas mate
Gengar over Donphan? Tch hard to say, depends what you want it to do as the sleep trap set is out the question. I think the real question is what does it do for the team? I've been fairly open that i'm not overly convinced its the right approach for the current meta, but to put a ghost there, hmm:
Keep Donphan; you need it for balance & punishing sleeping laxen. Take Slowbro out, some of the following might work:
Gengar: mean look, Thunder, perish song, destiny bond (or could go c.ray or protect over d.bond)
Or, and this would probably be better suited to the all out stall nature of the team;
Misdreavus: Toxic, theif, Thunder, destiny bond.
(I dont see much need for rest as you have a beller)
Though my honest opinion if you're gonna use a team like this it needs some kind of offense strategy, even if just a passive one like having many pokes with Toxic; that'll synergise well with rest belling. Or just focusing on making a perish trapper the key piece I.e. Using the other Pokemon to spread paralysis and offer screen support, then use parafusion perish trap to pick them off.
My old skool back in the day team was; Raikou, Starmie, Donphan, Skarmory, Jynx, Blissey. It was just a typical stall that use Jynx to just pick everything off with sleep perish trap, and it worked ok. If I was going to adapt that team & ideology for modern GSC it would probably look something like this:
Raikou: Reflect, Thunderbolt, HP ice, Rest
Starmie: Rapid Spin, Thunder Wave, Surf, Recover
Snorlax: Curse, Body Slam, Rest, Sleep Talk
Skarmory: Drill Peck, Whirlwind, Rest, (Toxic/Theif/Curse)
Blissey: Light Screen, Sing, Heal Bell, Softboiled
Misdreavus/Gengar: Mean Look, Confuse Ray, Perish Song, Protect
No idea how well that would work in practise but the theory seems functional for a stall team. Hopefully that gives you some ideas mate
And one last thing i should prob mention; there is a "current" version of that early Celia style stall team thats considered standard;
Zapdos, Forretress, Suicune, Snorlax, Misdreavus, Blissey
Forry sets up Reflect then Suicune is the phazer. Iffy lax defense if you ask me but its proven pretty successful
Zapdos, Forretress, Suicune, Snorlax, Misdreavus, Blissey
Forry sets up Reflect then Suicune is the phazer. Iffy lax defense if you ask me but its proven pretty successful
For all the recent stall teams (barring the one you just posted Jame$ G), I don't think they are going to fare well on the ladder. Too many players using growth-pass for it to be effective. Also, the other random wallbreakers on there can neuter your team.
I might be inclined to use a stall team like those ones in a tournament setting in a matchup where I know my opponent. The ladder being random (for the most part), I wouldn't want to risk losing just on matchup alone (especially if it's to a low ELO player).
Of the games I played with Roostur, I found that the team is a lot more vulnerable to a crit than with other teams. Once the first piece is down, it's a matter of dropping the other pieces one by one. This generally holds true for a lot of GSC matchups, but the effect of this is much clearer when playing these stall teams. I still hate the drumlax matchup if the lax has a fire move. That's the hardest thing for you to deal with.
I might be inclined to use a stall team like those ones in a tournament setting in a matchup where I know my opponent. The ladder being random (for the most part), I wouldn't want to risk losing just on matchup alone (especially if it's to a low ELO player).
Of the games I played with Roostur, I found that the team is a lot more vulnerable to a crit than with other teams. Once the first piece is down, it's a matter of dropping the other pieces one by one. This generally holds true for a lot of GSC matchups, but the effect of this is much clearer when playing these stall teams. I still hate the drumlax matchup if the lax has a fire move. That's the hardest thing for you to deal with.