Community The Future of RBY on Pokémon Perfect

[Genesis7]

I brought this up on Discord before but figured I would make a thread here so that everyone could get into the discussion.

With dwindling numbers of signups on PP overall, but specifically in RBY tournaments, which have been the claim to fame of PP for many years, I think it is a good time to discuss how we, as the RBY community, should move forward. Smogon RBY tournaments are becoming more popular and have been cropping up more and more since Lutra, Sceptross, tjdaas, and co. have made a push for representation. Where the restrictions of hosting tournaments on Smogon used to be more rigid, they have now become more relaxed and anyone can host just about anything (albeit with some wait times). So what is the "point" of continuous support for PP? Would it not be better to focus our attention on Smogon, where our leadership here is the leadership there? The proof that the RBY community can be great on Smogon will help us to maintain representation in official Smogon tournaments in the future and bring in more players than PP ever could. I believe we can host the seasonals as they have been planned, and potentially more smaller tournaments on Smogon to replace the constant flow of Master Tournaments on here.

There are of course some obvious cons to this proposal:
1. Legacy: We lose all the medals and trophies accumulated on here and our legendary players will have to start from scratch.
2. Certain players: Disaster Area is the primary one that comes to mind. He obviously cannot join us on Smogon and that would suck as he is a good competitor. Others like ErPeris, Enigami, and Lusch have expressed preference for PP over Smogon as well.
3. The promise of representation: I think we can very feasibly transition over to Smogon right now, but management shifts and we do not have full control over what happens with our tours, who gets banned or tournament banned, etc.

In order to keep the community growing I think the shift of our playerbase and tournament scene to Smogon is somewhat necessary. We have done all we can here in terms of promotion and hosting and people are just not interested in playing off-site. But let me know your thoughts and potential strategies for keeping the community here alive.

 

[Christos]

Community - A proposal, and serious discussion | Pokémon Perfect
In the post linked above, I had explained why I prefer Pokemon Perfect over Smogon. The main reason up to this day is the more mature and friendly attitude of Pokemon Perfect's community compared to that of Smogon and unless this changes, I can't see myself as a "smogoner". So, in my opinion, in terms of atmosphere Pokemon Perfect >> Smogon.
In terms of RBY tournaments, I still prefer Pokemon Perfect. As they say, less is more. Joining a RBY Master Tournament means that I can get very competitive games and also have less trouble scheduling, which is huge when you have a busy schedule. Actually, I think that the larger size of Smogon's tournaments is a drawback at the moment just because of painful scheduling. Those tournaments are just too big and last for too long, offering little in terms of quality in order to compensate for that. Their size usually means that the level of competition in the early rounds is poor (sometimes awful), unless you're unlucky and get paired with somebody very good early on. Their duration means that when you sign up for a tournament, you can't really know whether you can complete it or not because they all last for more than three months. Don't get me wrong, they have potential, but I don't think they're the real deal in terms of RBY competition at the moment.
Last but not least, I see Pokemon Perfect as an independent community that has something to offer to the players and not just as a Smogon Jr., as GGFan would say. In that sense, I'm against the idea that we should abandon it for Smogon just because they finally decided to show some respect to the old generations' community. However, it is true that Pokemon Perfect seems to be in decline at the moment. I believe that we have to accept that this community will never be as big as Smogon's and instead only focus on maintaining our identity as the best RBY community on the internet.

Edit: I would like to issue the following question to Lutra : What made you prioritize RoA over Pokemon Perfect and which is your vision going forward ?

 

[Lutra]

Christos

I think I originally was just excited about the bigger numbers in the tournaments, then I got really involved in the room stuff, which is fairly easy and rewarding, and is a big source of newer old gen players. I've always wanted the old gens to be no less relevant than the current gen. I don't really much of a vision besides adding new features, such as new tournaments, and trying to repeat things year on year, slowly offering more by improved efficiency. The frustrating part is you can only do something for so long before wanting to do something different, and things don't improve quick enough, and that's maybe a reason I shifted from PP to RoA. I feel I'm getting fed up of RoA too, now.

 

[Ika Ika Musume]

As a new player who originally came from showdown, I prefer pokemon perfect to smogon honestly.

I've been trying to get stuff going for a different tier that I main and to be honest it is close to impossible, partially because of the way the vision of smogon is but also because of the people who are currently incharge of the individual tier are unyielding in their personal vision. I think there is a certain attitude, almost an arrogance when it comes to smogon that kind of just puts me off a bit. I'll play the tours because I am happy to get any tour experience I can but I prefer the more chilled out atmosphere here.

I feel I've gotten more encouragement and help in a few months of not even seriously being involved with pokemon perfect than I have in over a year in heavily being involved in smogon. I've taken my time there far more seriously too and I feel like I've been pushed back every step of the way and made less friends and essentially had to pull myself up skill wise by myself despite putting a huge amount of work in for the community, more than nearly anyone else in my tier over a period of 6 months for nothing in terms of like even friends (I don't even want recognition, but even to be able to build and play with others would be nice). Just how insular smogon and the surrounding communities are at times (though some individual communities are worse than others), honestly I hate it.

Smogon is not the future, if anything showdown is the soul of mons.

 

[Ortheore]

So I really don't like the idea of totally migrating to smogon. Even as someone who doesn't take part in chats on Discord, I still get a very different vibe with PP, however it's hard to put my finger on exactly why. I get the sense that smogon feels I guess rigid, and that you're just another random internet person. Here I don't get that sense, although my perspective is likely a bit warped due to being a leader, especially when it comes to things being rigid, as I can certainly recall that criticism being leveled against me and DA in the past, so maybe that's not the best point. I do however, stand by the point that you don't feel as much like a generic internet person here. That said, that characteristic might be inversely related to the size of the forums so idk that's worth noting. Additionally, I'd like to point out that our overall standard of players here is great. Sounds ultra-elitist but I think it's true. That also means that when we discuss things, I think it's a genuine discussion and we usually have a lot of respect for each others' opinions. Posting on smogon feels like taking turns to shout your opinion.

Basically I don't think smogon feels like a community, whereas PP does, at least it does when there's discussion going on, which is something I miss out on a lot as I don't use Discord.

I guess this is all about the discussions that go on here, rather than the tournaments themselves, but really the tournaments are the lifeblood of PP, so a switch over to smogon for them would probably be fatal for this community, and there simply wouldn't be a substitute. Tbh I'd probably quit competitive pokemon altogether. Also, as mentioned by Christos and as I touched on with my elitist comment earlier, I simply think our tournaments make for a far more competitive experience, whereas smogon tournaments are total mixed bag

I'm honestly unsure what can best be done to further develop the site. As Chrysalis mentioned in their post, I think we do need to trim some of the excess in terms of what we offer, but I don't know what there is to be done to refine our core tournaments. I've been more than happy to do stuff on site, but when it comes to reaching out to other people that might be interested in this site to help bring new people in, well, that's always been something of a blind spot for me.

 

[Lusch]

It's been quite a while since this thread has been started. I might be late, but I'd like to share my thoughts and wishes on the matter. It's also an answer to this thread:
Community - Thoughts on Staff Situation + Expanding Beyond Tournaments | Pokémon Perfect
since they both kind of touch the same theme.
First of all, I'd like to say that I pretty mich agree entirely with Christos' post in this thread and with Chrysalis' post in the other one. I'm trying not to repeat what they said, but there might be some overlap.

Firstly, I think we should remember where this website comes from. When I joined it (which was not even in the really early days of the forum), there where only RBY and GSC seasons (and GSC has always been a bit on-off due to simply lacking active playerbase). Hard to imagine, isn't it? There was not even ADV... This was motivated because nowhere could people play RBY in tournaments regularly.
I think a similar claim is still true today. And I'm not limiting this statement to RBY only but let's say every old gen that is not in Smogon tour (a bit arbitrary, I could also say every old generation). Smogon does not cater to them that much. Yes, there is a good curcuit for them now. But still, those 4 big tournaments with over 100 participants each (Winter Seasonal, Global Championship, Cup, Summer Seasonal) are just not too enjoyable for everyone (can only echo Christos' post here, so read what he wrote).

I personally truly find the concept of PP's RBY curcuit amazing. regular (smaller) tours that don't drag for too long. Those MTs being imbedded into a higher layer of Seasons, which itself is imbedded in the Player rankings system. It looks complex at first, but in fact is a great system, rewarding long term successful players with seeds in tours and giving them some goals to shoot for (winning or getting a medal in a season or even a player ranking). But it also caters to the players who only wanna play a few tournements without necessarily following a long-term goal. On top of that, rounding out the system with Cups that are partly qualification-only via those player rankings for example, allowing for a great showdown of proven players only amongst themselves as well as giving some variety in tournament formats, great.

Really, I find this concept of a Old gen metagame curcuit far surperior to what Smogon has. One more plus for PP here is that on RoA a lot of the tournements "force" you to play all of the old gens, if you wanna win something "meaningful", whereas you can prove your worth as a player of only one tier in a curcuit like PP much better.

So, idk... I can see myself that people are not coming here as much anymore and all... Only, I really cannot explain to myself why exactly that is. For me, it is at leats not PP's fault. Maybe it's the attitude of people that say "only smogon counts" kind of bs, idk...

Anyway, I want to share my thoughts on what I think PP should be. This is not too idealistic in terms of "our own tiers" or whatever. I try to take general public interest into account. And that interest lies in playing the established Smogon tiers. There's no denying. But as a tournament site for old gens, I think PP still has its place alongside Smogon due to having the opportunity to cater to people like Christos and myself, who like the atmosphere better and actually do not enjoy the larger size and time commitment smogon forces onto them.
My vision for what PP should be is quite simple (and maybe a bit arbitrary, I admit that). I'd like to see PP maintaining this system that it currently has in RBY (MTs < Seasons < Player Rankings) plus the Cups. But only for the "old gens" which are by my definition RBY, GSC, ADV, DPP. Everything that is Team preview can be played plenty on Smogon. Maybe include tiers no longer in Smogon Tour. I'd also like those kind of Cups for all those gens. Team Tournaments should not be the main focus here, I feel. Make this a strong site again for individual players to prove themselves! But for this we need quality hosting and optimally a moderator for all of the tiers plus someone who keeps medals and spreadsheets up-to-date as well as possible. Just show some quality with that. A surperior tournament curcuit system that is executed properly will not fail. Also as it has been in the past, would it not be possible to give out amazon gift cards for Season 1st, 2nd, 3rd?

There will be demand for an RBY, GSC, etc. curcuit outside of Smogon sooner or later again. At the latest when they start scratching RBY from their tournaments like SPL and I have even heard about there being voices who want to kick it out of Classic.

Well... to give a tl;dr:
Restrict to tournaments in the Gen1-Gen4 OU tiers and offer the same curcuit system that is already in place on PP (MT, Season, Player Rankings, Cups ideally even for non-RBY gens), but host it with a good quality (active hosts, medals being updated quickly, spreadsheets being kept up-to-date properly. maybe give out some prizes as it has been in the past)

 

[Ortheore]

Team Tournaments should not be the main focus here, I feel. Make this a strong site again for individual players to prove themselves!

I was actually thinking about individual vs team tours the other day and I realised that there's actually a really strong argument in favour of team tours. I think they provide a fundamentally different experience to playing individually, one that many people (not me lol) enjoy. It's also an experience that on Smogon is rather exclusive- just think how many people sign up for these tours that have zero chance of making a team. On the other hand, our smaller size means few people are turned away, so people get a chance to join in and try it out themselves. Consequently, I think they are worth pursuing here because they're more accessible

That said, I'm not remotely disagreeing that individual tours should be refined and focused- I'd certainly prioritise them over team tours lol, I don't like team tours. I'm just saying there might be a good argument for team tours as a significant focus as well.

===================================

One question that sprang to mind is whether it would be possible to structure team tours in such a way that inclusiveness is preserved as these things scale. The short answer is probably not, but I'll throw some ideas around anyway. The most obvious solution is to introduce tiers to the team tournaments, such that each player can only belong to one tier at a time, but can rise and fall based on performance. The question then arises: who would run them? My thought was to treat the lower tier tours as farm leagues, with some teams from the higher tier collaborating to help run the farm league- hosting would be shared by reps from each team. Teams would mostly operate and be managed independently, however each one would be aligned with a higher tier team, with that higher tier team sending a player down to supervise/help out. If the higher tier team wanted to recruit a player from one of their lower tier teams, they would have the right to do so before any other team.

Of course, any "farm league" tour would absolutely not be hosted concurrently with the higher tier tournament- that would just put waaaaaaaay too much on ppl's plates otherwise. However, this would also mean a shift in how teams are currently handled. It seems to me that teams are basically formed for a single tour only to be dissolved again once the tour finishes. This model would require teams to exist after their tournament has ended. Also note that there need not be only one tier 2 tour- there could be multiple tournaments, run by different coalitions of higher tier teams. Also lower tier teams need not be exclusively aligned with a single team- if there are fewer lower tier teams, then rights can be shared between teams (they would then have to bid, but don't face competition from teams without rights). Likewise, a higher tier team can have multiple lower tier teams (assuming there's some control to ensure fairness). The point I'm trying to make is that there doesn't need to be a 1:1 correlation with anything relating to farm leagues, the whole thing should be flexible. Hell, higher tier teams may not be interested at all, and if that's the case it would be a disaster forcing it through