RBY OU Rhydon team

[marcoasd]

This team aims at mitigating Rhydon's weaknesses.

Spoiler

Starmie
Ability: Illuminate
- Blizzard
- Psychic
- Thunder Wave
- Recover

Rhydon
Ability: Lightning Rod
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Body Slam
- Substitute

Chansey
Ability: Natural Cure
- Seismic Toss
- Reflect
- Thunder Wave
- Soft-Boiled

Exeggutor
Ability: Chlorophyll
- Sleep Powder
- Stun Spore
- Psychic
- Explosion

Snorlax
Ability: Immunity
- Body Slam
- Self-Destruct
- Reflect
- Rest

Tauros
Ability: Intimidate
- Body Slam
- Fire Blast
- Hyper Beam
- Blizzard

I picked Starmie over Alakazam: it's more reliable against PhysEgg variants, and I need that because only Tauros is faster than Exeggutor. It can create opposition to RestLax variants, and it helps against Cloyster too in case you meet it.
Also, Starmie does better against Tauros - Rhydon's worst enemy.
Starmie might want to switch out on turn 1 TWave: for both preserving speed on a slow team and because you don't want to face a Lapras with Starmie para'd.

I like Reflect Chansey better than BeamBolt because I like to hurt Alakzam lead better. Considering the build, I think I want to TWave Chansey immediately anyway (so yeah, not going for the Ice spam).

Snorlax has both ReflectRest and SelfDestruct: it can take care of Slowbro or waters in general or just generate value by blowing up after spreading some damage with Body Slam.

Tauros has the Fire Blast over Earthquake for the ditto. Counter Chansey and Gengar will punish you for pairing this variant with MonoLax.
All in all, I think I would use standard Reflect Lax if I'm concerned about one of those.

Standard - I feel like Stun Spore is mandatory.

Rhydon: standard. Counter is a cool gimick (after Explosions or on the occasional Tauros' CH Hyper Beam), but I obviously don't recommend it.

As a result, this team is weak to Gengar and Counter+Ice Beam Chansey (Rhydon can do better against a SToss variant); it doesn't like to face a Rhydon of your opponent’s.
Rhydon has fun against Reflect Chansey and PhysLax: this team doesn't like to face Ice Beam Snorlax, that you desperately want to paralyse.

 

[Lusch]

I myself have used those composition of Pokemon a lot (check my SPL games, but not only there, for quite a while now). And of course I have toyed around with movesets as well. For this specific team as you post it here... well yea... you basically say it all yourself... Gengar and Counter are problems. No EQ on Tauros is really hoping not to meat Gengar (which works at the moment, but geneally does not seem like a good idea, also beware of non-lead Gengar, which is at this point just as common as lead Gengar so, the opoonent leading an Alakazam does not necessarily mean no Gengar). Snorlax not being able to scout for Counter can outright lose imo if the opponent really is Counter Chansey.

Now on to the most interesting thing on this team (for me): Your Chansey set. I used this team a lot. And I always felt Thunderbolt somewhere is mandatory, especially on a Rhydon Team. Opposing Lapras and (Thunderbolt-) Starmie [not to mention Slowbro, but I guess BoltChansey loses anyway most of the time and you have that Boom-button on Lax plus can pressure with Rhydon if you predict the Rest correctly] can be a pain to deal with, especially if you have to give up your Chansey at some point to... say an Exeggutor Boom.
If you check my replay from SPL vs MetalGro$$ I go the same Chansey route. But my lead Starmie was Thunderbolt. I understand that you cannot go BoltStarmie on the team as it stands cause then you have only one move that actually touches Gengar on the whole team, and that even on a Mon Gengar is never staing in against ever.
So yea... seeing as I used it myself [the Chansey set] I obviously get why you want it, because of Alakazam, still in combination with the Team as you have it, I find it hard to justify, but hey... that is just my opinion.
I love the team (the composition of Pokemon, I am convinced it's a really solid one) and am myself always searching for the ideal sets to use on the Pokemon. (Those change btw depending on metagame trends, you won't use this exact squad if Gengar is seen more often for example). And I'm always interested to see what others try with it.

 

[marcoasd]

Well, Starmie is somewhat of a pain, but SToss Chansey has almost decent chanses anyway; add that Starmie won't stay in on Thunderbolt. Psychic Starmie can mirror Psychic Starmie, and Restlax in general should beat BlizzBolt Starmie in the long run; on top of that, Rhydon should sweep over para'd Starmie (and para'd Lapras too) once Exeggutor is gone.

Using Thunderbolt Starmie as a lead is an option that I plan to include in another thread, but works fine here too. I'm not using TBolt Starmie here because IceBeamRestLax is possibly worse than Starmie.

 

[Disaster Area]

Yeah, for the same reason as Lusch I use BoltBeam Chansey when I use this sort of team, though I use a typical fishlax rather than a reflect lax. It's a good setup overall... CounterLax has cool synergy with rocks.

Still, interested to see your variant!

 

[Peasounay]

Nice... This is one of the teams I use the most as well, I have Ibeam/Tbolt Chansey for the same reasons Lusch mentioned, and I prefer pairing my B/B Chans with Reflect Lax to breathe against Fishlax's aggression, especially in a team like this that has a hard time against Normals overall, you usually know who's more likely to bring Slowbro anyway

I definitely like your choice of sets, trying to gap the team's weaknesses with more offensive possibilities of your own. If I had to run this team I would probably put that Thunderbolt on Starmie, clicking it against other ones t1 means you would get to sleep it a decent amount of the time, helping your pace with such a slow team. And against Iblax well... If your plan is switching out it means your Reflect Chansey should be paralyzed most of the time (and I understand it's not something you particularly mind doing even if in the middle-game, you have double-reflect after all), so not fearing the freeze as much, and when those scenarios happen you can still have playability by forcing the other Snorlax to sleep at the risk of a couple Ice Beams. Then if you've forced it out with Exeggutor (since in that situation you want to be the first one to Rest) you can try and trade later on with Self-Destruct, and if you've followed your plan of getting Chansey para'd you should have the advantage in the blob ditto. Granted it's not easy to actually apply but in the long run it won't be the most common scenario anyway and when it happens you realize you're not hopeless: you pay the price of x/100 games to feel better in 100-x/100 games.

Also I like Reflect SD Lax a lot here because this team has a really hard time making comebacks

I think I should try more stuff like this, standard line-ups have been showing their limits lately (for me anyway), especially in a high level environment where you need to be looking for more and more ways to create favorable situations. It's not about beating the average players anymore, I think the game of RBY is making a new transition (in a good way), it's gonna be harder and harder to keep your first class seat

Overall I believe this line-up is one of the most optimal ways to run Rhydon

 

[marcoasd]

Well, the major points about BeamBolt are: 1) you're putting yourself in trouble against Alakazam (I got my para'd Starmie down to few HPs against Alakazam so many times that even if I said -or I think I will- that you can still use Starmie + BBolt Chansey time to time I think I just won't ever do that again).

this team has a really hard time making comebacks

2) With BeamBolt, you want to try and freeze Chansey: I don't think you want to run that moveset because it deals more damage to Starmie, Lapras and Rhydon.
I understand that this team doesn't have enough of BlizzBolt and lacks special attackers overall, but I want to TWave Chansey and get the physical punishment started as soon as possible, so I can't fish for freezes anyway.

a team like this that has a hard time against Normals overall

Psychic Starmie helps a lot against Snorlax in general, and it does something against Reflect Chansey too

If I had to run this team I would probably put that Thunderbolt on Starmie, clicking it against other ones t1 means you would get to sleep it a decent amount of the time, helping your pace with such a slow team.

Yeah, I didn't think about that - I think I'm pessimist about the chance of getting Exeggutor in against Chansey conveniently... I don't know the exact turn I'll get the window to bring Exeggutor in for free - well, I think it depends on your opponent: I would be pretty scared to stay in with Starmie on turn 2, as I can get outsped and crit for the KO, but you never know.

I'm always happy when I land the sleep early, but on the other hand it feels like supporting your opponent's IceLax plan a lot: you're running TBolt Starmie and you're negating yourself the option to threaten Sleep Powder on ReflectLax.
Snorlax will Body Slam Exeggutor and Rest when needed, so I see this putting you in a position where you have to play aggressivley and start trading pokemon with your opponent before your Exeggutor gets paraslammed and you need Tauros/Snorlax's Selfdestruct to beat RestIceLax.

And against Iblax well... If your plan is switching out it means your Reflect Chansey should be paralyzed most of the time (and I understand it's not something you particularly mind doing even if in the middle-game, you have double-reflect after all), so not fearing the freeze as much, and when those scenarios happen you can still have playability by forcing the other Snorlax to sleep at the risk of a couple Ice Beams. Then if you've forced it out with Exeggutor (since in that situation you want to be the first one to Rest) you can try and trade later on with Self-Destruct, and if you've followed your plan of getting Chansey para'd you should have the advantage in the blob ditto. Granted it's not easy to actually apply but in the long run it won't be the most common scenario anyway and when it happens you realize you're not hopeless: you pay the price of x/100 games to feel better in 100-x/100 games.

Yeah, Reflect Chansey would buy me some time if only I didn't want it para'd on turn 1 - at least this won't happen everytime though, as I won't face Alakazam (or TBolt Starmie?) lead all the time.
That's exactly the way to counter IceLax, you have to live with the chance of getting frozen through a couple attempts if it's needed, until you get momentum and can manhandle it with your stuff as it's para'd - given that this is the plan, I think that Psychic Starmie is that important.

So well, I made a lot of rebuttal and possibly repeated myself here and there, but you made many good points:
I'll fire off the metagame thread (SPL's afterward) soon, and many things I have there are coming our here too.

standard line-ups have been showing their limits lately (for me anyway), especially in a high level environment where you need to be looking for more and more ways to create favorable situations. It's not about beating the average players anymore, I think the game of RBY is making a new transition (in a good way), it's gonna be harder and harder to keep your first class seat

!

 

[terpnation]

Now that it's been 4 months, how do you feel that this team performs in the current meta? Do you agree with Lusch, DA, and Peas that this team needs tbolt somewhere to mitigate its weakness to Lapras and other waters? Or do you feel that with proper play that you can still play around those weaknesses?

 

[terpnation]

Still think monolax works best or would amnesia lax/standard reflect lax work better?

 

[marcoasd]

Now that it's been 4 months, how do you feel that this team performs in the current meta? Do you agree with Lusch, DA, and Peas that this team needs tbolt somewhere to mitigate its weakness to Lapras and other waters? Or do you feel that with proper play that you can still play around those weaknesses?

I think that using Rhydon in general depends on the need of dealing with Zapdos - Rhydon had a disappointing matchup vs Tauros, but having to deal with a Zapdos barehands all the time is too much.

About the team, I think it's a viable variant: the most common one runs IceLax (ReflectRest + Ice Beam and obviously Body Slam), but Selfdestruct is the best move for a Snorlax against Tauros especially switching into it (you don't want to use it too early in the game, but the emergency button is there and it will help a lot later in the game) and the purpose of this team is mitigating Rhydon's weaknesses indeed.
That's the reason why I chose Fire Blast Tauros, too. When you add Fire Blast Tauros and EQ-less Snorlax, you don't want to face Counter Chansey and Gengar: that would be the major issue.
I don't agree with them - I wouldn't use TBolt to deal with waters because it's not as effective as it looks: Seismic Toss is different from mono-Ice Chansey (which is walled), so you're effectively countering Water-Types, which will switch out and TWave will be enough when they won't.
Both Cloyster and Lapras are weak to Rock Slide, and on top of that Snorlax has Selfdestruct so it can deal with Slowbro (and Rhydon on predicted Rest will 3HKO 70% of the time).

On the other hand, Thunderbolt Starmie gives you a comfortable option in the Starmie lead ditto, giving you a chance to get the first sleep.
Still, Rhydon teams have very few ways to deal with ReflectLax variants (especially IceLax, so they often use an IceLax of their own) because Starmie and Exeggutor are the only special attackers - BlizzBolt Starmie doesn't beat RestLax on average while Psychic Starmie does.

I think I would give Mega Drain Egg a shot on this team.

Still think monolax works best or would amnesia lax work better?

RestBoom works better against Tauros and specific targets that become difficult. Or simply to complete a 2 for 1 when you feel like it will do for you to win the game or Snorlax will not take it anymore.
If you are naming Amnesialax correctly (Body Slam/Amnesia/Blizzard/Rest), I have that team saved but I don't like it for the purposes of this team - it makes the team extremely frail on the physical side, so you will maybe look good in the games where you get ahead early in the game (basically, getting your opponent's stuff para'd before they get your things para'd), but you won't be able to fight back when they will because switching into Body Slam will be a nightmare.

If you mean the TankLax variant (both Reflect and Amnesia), you need to let something of your own slept before it can put some work in and even there it will lose to IceLax. It's just a variant that kinda disappeared because dealing with other Snorlax is more important than setting Amnesia up without a move that takes advantage of it.

 

[EB0LA]

Next time I face you, I'll be sure to bring

or