GSC OU Nuanced variations on a Spikes Stall theme

Forretress @ Leftovers
-Hidden Power Fire
-Double-Edge
-Spikes
-Rapid Spin

Umbreon @ Leftovers
-Pursuit
-Toxic
-Charm
-Moonlight

So yeah, I need to explain myself on this one. The idea is to be able to have play against any spinner without needing to run a Ghost. Normally, this isn't a huge problem; you just Toxic the opposing Cloy and Starmie, and Surf (if Cloy) or HP Fire (if Forr) for the opposing Forretress, right? Well, there's two problems with that plan. The first is the more conventional situation where you're against a team that carries a cleric. You have more PP, so this isn't an insurmountable challenge so much as an extremely difficult situation, but a team like this requires Spikes to get any sort of traction, and if Spikes are put on hold for that long bad things are bound to happen. The second problem is Rapid Spin Tentacruel. You can't Toxic it, and it takes paltry damage from every conventional move on the Spikers except for HP Electric Cloyster, which sacrifices Toxic for Starmie (unless you want to play without Explosion or Rapid Spin).

Umbreon is an interesting idea for covering the Cloyster and Starmie issues should you forego Toxic. Cloyster fears Toxic and takes a ton from Pursuit. Starmie is tricky because it can stay in to try to stall out your Pursuit PP instead of taking the 50% on the switch, but that still works because you eventually stall it out of Recover PP. Umbreon also covers other odd spinners like Donphan and Golem because it can switch in fairly easily on them, hit them with their low SpDef with Pursuit, and actually scare them out because they both loathe Toxic. This leaves Tentacruel, but with everything Toxic normally covering being taken over by Umbreon, you have the freedom to run a move specifically for this guy.

Umbreon does a couple things that just running a Spinblocker doesn't. First, it covers mixed attackers like Ttar and Nidoking. Second, it can't fall to Pursuit. Third, it offers Pursuit support of your own to make Rapid Spin a possibility someday against a spinblocking team.

Now, I mentioned HP Electric Cloy for the Tenta problem, but I actually prefer Forretress over Cloy for Spikes-centric teams like this; his Toxic immunity makes him a longer-lived Pokemon and he's more likely to go the distance and win a long-term Spikes war in a stall vs. stall matchup. Forretress already needs HP Fire for other Forry, but it does get Double-Edge to hammer Tentacruel with. Hence that odd move choice.

I go Moonlight over Rest on Umbreon here, but I'm not entirely sure what's REALLY better. I figure the constant activity Moonlight offers is more beneficial for winning the Spikes war than the status erasure and PP of Rest, but considering I'm playing for the long haul, this may not be true. Moonlight, at the very least, allows it to do both of covering dangerous mixed attackers and playing the Spikes game, as Rest means that it gets put out of commission for two terms when it does one or the other.

Other plans include running Ice Beam Cloy and just playing for freezes, and running Spikes Smeargle and using the Spore threat to constantly keep Spinners away. However, the former is unreliable and just loses outright on PP to Heal Bell, whereas the latter just cannot be depended upon long-term.

There's also Curse Qwilfish to force Tenta out while still being able to Poison stuff and Surf Forr (HPump is a little too shaky on PP to work reliably against Forr, imo). It's Toxic-immune to boot, so it actually can stick around for a while, plus unlike Forretress, it has an actually favorable matchup against non-HP Electric Cloy and can actually do a modicum of damage to spinblockers. I'm not going to dismiss it because "lol Qwilfish" because I'm open to anything; the solution I'm proposing is DE Forr for shit's sake. However, Qwilfish surrenders Rapid Spin and, because its Poison is based on a proc rate, it's likely to run into PP troubles against Heal Bell teams. But alongside Umbreon, that shouldn't be a huge issue. It's really the lack of Spin that turns me off of it for this team, although I could probably go Starmie > Suicune and shore that up easily enough. It's something to actually consider.

Suicune @ Leftovers
-Surf
-Toxic
-Roar
-Rest

Roar Suicune gets the nod as I felt I needed another Phazer to help with BP teams and Thunder Missy (granted, it's still weak to Thunder but not as ridiculously so as Skarmory, below). It's also nice for Vap and in conjunction with Spikes, and also for helping to deal with Lax in a pinch. I felt I could afford Roar over Sleep Talk on this team as I'm running both Umbreon and Skarmory to back Cune up against all the stuff it's normally tasked with covering (Nido, Marowak, Rhydon, Steelix, Ttar, that sort of thing).

Skarmory @ Leftovers
-Drill Peck
-Whirlwind
-Rest
-Toxic

Toxic Skarm to hammer Cloy and RoarKou switch-ins. Curse would prevent last-Poke Lax shenanigans, especially against ST Lax, who shrugs off Toxics that normally force other variants into tough spots. Curse is also nice in the middle game to prevent ST CurseLax from playing for crits on Skarm. However, between CharmBreon and RoarCune, I figure I have enough coverage for CurseLax to afford the luxury of Toxic. Which is nice, because an opposing RoarKou can be brutal if it gets in for absolutely free.

Snorlax @ Leftovers
-Double-Edge
-Earthquake
-Fire Blast
-Rest

I always love to run mixed lax on these sorts of teams. It seems to work really well with Spikes. I've considered running Toxic > EQ because honestly I almost never use EQ and it'd be nice to only have to catch Rocks and Missy once instead of 3 times. That said, being able to nail Gengar, particularly the odd Ptrap version that can screw up my typical Gengar defenses on this team (Raikou and Umb), is pretty nice.

Raikou @ Leftovers
-Thunder
-Hidden Power [Ice]
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

ST Raikou because the team needs an STer. I don't opt for Roar Kou because I don't like to run it without Heal Bell; when Raikou is inactive, it becomes really noticeable and exploitable. I've considered running Reflect to try to mitigate potential problems against LK DrumLax this team could otherwise face (the downside of running a Charm/Growl user over another Normal resist on a team like this), plus it also makes Exploding difficult, which can otherwise pick apart a stall team. However, I didn't like the prospect of missing out on those hits against Nidoking and Exeggutor (the latter being the reason I didn't opt for HP Water for Steelix; Lix is just not a giant threat on a team with Umb/Cune/FBLax, and having a reliable move against Ttar just isn't that important to me on a team with both Umb and Cune). Plus, Raikou getting blown up by Gengar isn't a huge threat to an Umb team, and the other option for getting Umb out of the way first (Egg) has to contend with Skarm. Normally this ST Kou with Thunder and Hidden Power is tough for a Ground-less stall to use against other stalls because it loses the PP war to other Raikou sets, but I can better afford it on this team because Umbreon can take a few hits from Kou if needed.

 

i'd prefer explosion>dedge on forretress to have something against drumlax once skar is in +5 dedge range/sleeping. It still can explode on spinner tentacruel if needed

 

Yeah this is just deadly and bulky as hell. Good team Jorgen. The only thing I see about countering spinners is you are on the back foot a little without toxic on Forretress, I don't think it's the wrong moveset, it works on this team for that erroneous coverage. That umbreon is great against cloyster but beating Starmie requires you to make the right prediction between toxic or pursuit, and on several turns to stop it recovering, but even after starmie's poisoned it can spin with umbreon in and stay in and just recover the damage. Starmie will stand to take a beating either way. Apart from that Nidoking and that toxic, d.edge, flamethrower lax m.dragon uses are probably things you don't want to see, I wouldn't say *beats though, plenty of bulk and rest on this team to deal with that. Machamp with curse, cross chop, rest, sleep talk could give you a hard time I reckon, they're rare but every now and again they do pop up.

 

Another scenario i could see is cloyster just blowing up on umbreon, that Forretress can't stay in against it and there's no ground or rock types here they need to save him for, then ghosts can come in all day against Forretress with Umbreon gone. I just wonder if giga drain or toxic might be better than double edge, just so that you're not forced to switch to Umbreon as soon as you have Cloyster on Forretress?

 

i really like this team man, but i did some changes...
i'm not a gsc top player so tell me if i did some bullshits
sleeptalk on suicune because there's not a beller, so durig a battle could be a problem have 1 true answer to sleepmoves (and raikou can not take nidoking's kiss totally safe), so in mi opinion sleeptalk>toxic is a viable option
i gave also toxic and curse to snorlax to force miltank to use moar hell bells and i think that toxic snorlax could ruin also offensive teams (take cloy, eggy and tyranitar)
and as moonlight said explosion>dedge on forretress

thanks for the team and correct me if i thought bad

 

ST Cune is definitely a natural pick and really helps against Nido. It's probably the better set tbh. I'd rather use it over Roar than Toxic though; I like being able to nail Raikous and Snorlaxes on the switch, if the only "active" move you have is Surf, Cune becomes dead weight who can't do much to dissuade certain types of switch-in.

Toxic and Curse on Lax? Do you Rest? I actually really like the idea of non-Rest Toxic CurseLax with a Fire move for the exact reasons you mention (nailing Ttar and Bellers, namely), although I personally don't like running non-Rest Lax without a beller or a really aggressive team around it.

Explosion is a natural and standard choice for Forr, as I said DE is me being kooky.

 

i just faced a stall with drumlax and rest spinner cloyster+miltank. Rest cloyster can scare out forre and stays in vs umbreon, and i couldn't kill it in any way, just forcing it to rest with other members and ppstall miltank's heal bells, but i have to play with spikes on my field the most time. Luckily rest spin cloy is not so common.