GSC OU Non-max stats discussion

[Ortheore]

So with RBYer posting his thread on min atk in RBY, that kinda prompted me to consider similar things for GSC. What are some cases where you'd deviate from the status quo of maxing all stats? The obvious case for it is to minimise confusion damage which although rare, is still relevant due to Missy and DPunch. A counter-case to consider is that you might want to keep max attack in order to maximise Struggle damage, on the grounds that it's possible that you may be involved in a PP stall-war. And then of course you have to consider whether Struggle damage is even enough to outweigh lefties. So is min-atk worth it? What would run that kind of thing? Am I completely off base in raising this topic? Idk.

Just from looking at the viability rankings, the only pokemon in C and above that usually have no physical attacks are Zapdos, Raikou, Suicune, Vaporeon, Misdreavus, Starmie, Umbreon, Blissey, Jolteon, Espeon and Smeargle. If you want to consider Struggle, all of those pokemon except Missy, Jolt, Espeon and Smeargle typically have recovery outside of lefties which is the most obvious factor which would eliminate a given mon from participating in a pp stall.

There is one other case where stat reduction may occur- Phazers and CurseRoarers. This is a notable topic in GSC Ubers, where CurseRoar is quite relevant and its main abuser (Lugia) is quite fast, but are there any instances where you'd do this in OU? I think this is something interesting to try on Kangaskhan as a means of circumventing Toxic Skarmory (or Thief, if that's still an option by the time Khan enters play). I can't think of any other instances in OU tho.

So yeah min-atk is overall not that important, but there's little reason not to run it if you think it's worth doing. Lugia in Ubers and Khan in OU are examples where it could be very significant if it were to be done, but in the latter case it's a pretty niche mon so that's something.

 

[RBYer]

How would Kangaskhan circumvent Thief with low speed anyway? Is there something I don't know about with sleep and Thief?

You should be able to minimize speed completely if you really wanted to, by killing 37402 Shuckles (or half with PokeRus? I just assume it doubles after the split) with 5 switches each battle, lol. Which means anything 187 or above is fair game, or 185 if you didn't mind losing 4 HP.

Level 1. 269 - outruns base 85's (mainly relevant for Suicune, Nidoking, and Heracross) while being slower than max Speed Rhydon after a Curse.

Level 2. 259 - outruns base 80's (mainly relevant for Dragonite), while being slower than the base 85's and max Speed Rhydon after a Curse (170).

Level 3. 229 - outruns base 65's (mainly relevant for Vaporeon and Umbreon), while being slower than the base 70-85's (max speed Skarmory is the big deal here) as well as max Speed Steelix (good)/Snorlax (bad) after a Curse.

Level 4. 219 - you may want to be slower than max Speed Tyranitar for Curse wars

You can go lower than that but you run into complications which I will discuss. Plus there is a bunch of stuff at base 55 (208), which you probably want to be faster than, so going lower than 209 seems bad.

The main problem is that in a world where people do start caring about their speed, Skarmory, Tyranitar, Rhydon, and Steelix also will. Steelix and Rhydon can cut their speed all the way down to 105 without worrying about too much, as they still outrun a Snorlax after one Curse. Rhydon may want to stay at 159 or 169 though, which makes it vulnerable to Level 3 or above (169 is the magic number for underspeeding Level 2). Skarmory may also do fine in the 159-169 range, although under 209, and 189 it loses quite a bit of effectiveness. Curse Tyranitar has similar concerns, and I don't see justifying dropping it under 209 because otherwise you'd be better off using another Curser probably.

Suicune also probably does best to drop a bit of its speed as it is a tank, and doesn't serve that well coin flipping with Nidokings and Heracrosses.

So while I don't really know if anything will ever "settle" regarding speed numbers, they really add a whole new dimension and a new sort of pregame Rock-Paper-Scissors that we aren't really accustomed to thinking about.

 

[Jame$ G]

I personally don't like dropping speed stats on phazers, being able to outspeed snorlax at the same boost level is a key part of countering it. I drop the attack stat to minimum on special attackers/p.trappers mainly just to get female attribute. Marowak now needs its attack dropped a little so it can stay under 1000 after swords dance. The only othet time i've intentionally dropped a stat was when I used mirror coat Smeargle; I dropped the special defense so it could ohko Raikou from mirror coating a thunderbolt, which it wouldn't do under max stats.

 

[Ortheore]

Yeah, the issue with non-max speed is there's a lot of stuff you might want to normally outspeed, for instance Skarm would probably prefer to still outpace Egg. The arms race RBYer described I think only becomes a thing if CurseRoarers drop their speed and are also relevant enough for it to be a major consideration. Ubers potentially fits the bill here, OU definitely does not.

 

[RBYer]

The question is more of "do I lose anything by losing speed?" Outspeeding Egg/Bliss/T-tar is likely not something you'd want to give up for the sake of being better against Kangaskhan.

Something like Steelix though has comparatively way less to lose by doing so. It can give up a speed tie with Snorlax to be more or less immune against Curse/Roarers that it resists (Kangaskhan, Tyranitar, and Skarmory all fit the bill). If I were to use Steelix, I probably would drop its speed simply because you are risking not much for a potentially great reward.