RBY 2U General Discussion Thread

[Disaster Area]

It failed so hard and you're still restrained into it...
The ultimate proof is that you're refusing to hear the community's opinion on trapping-moves in 2U because you need to defend your little 5U heaven...

#1 it hasn't failed
#2 I'm listening to their opinion

???

 

[Enigami]

Not one Fire Spin, Clamp or Bind user was ever a problem, and I see no reason to target those moves. That 70-75% accuracy is pretty awful odds to rely on repeatedly and are good tools on the Pokemon that have them, especially with the users' limited coverage and movepool.

Also should maybe clarify I have no opinion and what action to take regarding it due to my outdated experience with 2U, I just wanted to present another option available beyond Tentacruel and/or Wrap being banned / left alone.

 

[marcoasd]

What do you mean, it failed? I don't know what you guys' problem is. 2U is fine. If people want to talk about a ban, then I agree with Ortheore, it should be Tentacruel. But even that is far from clear.
And yes, just because Wrap is dominant does not mean the tier is not fine. Wrap is a move that exists in Red Blue and Yellow and works the way it does. Thunder Wave in OU is just as "unhealthy" (one could argue, which I'm not gonna).
And I don't see any reason to differentiate 2U from 3U in terms of importance. Why is 2U of all things the tier people would play in tours? Why can't it be 3U? It makes no sense to me.

It is fine to you - you like it! I don't think people approaching to 2U are happy right now: I've played basically every sort of RBY without spitting, but 2U doesn't attract me at all right now.
Would I play it? Yeah... but I've played way better 2Us than that.

The "does exist" argument makes no sense, evasion moves and OHKOs exist as well... come on! And Thunder Wave is one of the things that save the game from being as deep as a puddle.

Go on Youtube and search for UU games: you'll find something. It historically is the main non-OU tier for tournaments; you might find a bit NU too, and it stops there.
It historically is played more than any other non-OU tier because people have always been too lazy to go below: Ubers (which is disliked), OU, UU and that's always been more than enough.
I don't agree with that, but that's the way it works...

#1 it hasn't failed
#2 I'm listening to their opinion
???

Two egregious lies, that's just about like me looking a priest into the eyes swearing I never pronounced profanities...
Actually, that system didn't fail completely: it produced some good tiers, but the 2U revision was a disaster. Anyway, my point is that we never got even one single tier to become so popular as we wanted.

 

[Heroic Troller]

deluks not getting manager was strange, considering that half of that list of managers have done nothing for pp outside of playing tours, ridiculous that was used as an argument against him;

somehow managed to choose the worst time for the tour on top of that, by actively doing it during a time when 2 other tours with overlapping playerbases are running, by pretending that other sites schedules are irrelevant;

not really my business since i'm neither playing nor managing, but i don't even know 10 players per team + sub is expected, 80 players are needed at a minimum right? and you have like 88 signups, add activity issues, and there are already issues even before the tour starts.

The thing that most strikes me is someone who literally has no positive contribution to the site, and is known for alting, asking random questions, and just all around doing nothing noteworthy is deciding whether or not someone has done “enough” to manage here.

“We won’t change the format” stop being conceited, it’s already a joke that bw 1u is being pushed in when there are hardly 8 players who would actually want to play the tier in tour, and you don’t want to cut slots or anything; good luck with your tour, keep on making groups chats to go contrary to common sense, not like that’s anything new right?

Learn to adapt and stop being isolationist, and thinking this site is somehow superior(lol) to the other alternatives available; the funniest thing is that this site advocates being open, direct and diplomatic but has multiple decisions made “for the greater good” made by a few people with little to no input from anyone outside that group. How is that any different from how any other site is run?

To whoever said that the format can’t be changed why not? You’re not running some multinational company, you clown learn to actually understand what your playerbase wants instead of just randomly deciding that things are set in stone, to gratify some deep seated need for order.

The reason this is such a shambles is that no one is willing to put their foot down, and accept that there is clearly something wrong; because it’s way easier to start with the base assumption that everyone else is wrong, and that the site and everything it does is holier than thou, than to pragmatically accept criticism and adapt to what is happening.

That was out of the place but the (now) bold parts says a lot, this fact of no complex ban should get a real big discussion because they have sense and currently no one is willing to change the stuff because they are "set in stone", what if it was wrong all along?

 

[Disaster Area]

Two egregious lies, that's just about like me looking a priest into the eyes swearing I never pronounced profanities...
Actually, that system didn't fail completely: it produced some good tiers, but the 2U revision was a disaster. Anyway, my point is that we never got even one single tier to become so popular as we wanted.

???

how is the 2U revision a disaster?

how does the tiers not being super popular mean that this is a failure? And, you're a part of this community too, and one of the people involved in the RBY retiering. A small part of the onus is on you, just like it is on the rest of us, if the tiers are not as popular as we would like. We need to invite people to play, give them opportunities to play, and so on.

 

[marcoasd]

???

how is the 2U revision a disaster?

how does the tiers not being super popular mean that this is a failure? And, you're a part of this community too, and one of the people involved in the RBY retiering. A small part of the onus is on you, just like it is on the rest of us, if the tiers are not as popular as we would like. We need to invite people to play, give them opportunities to play, and so on.

The former 2U tier (the Birdless, Gyarados as water-type one) was way more enjoyable - you'll start the "oh it is subjective" story and bury this under some sand, keeping it the way you like it. The main thing about the tier is that it wasn't polluted with trapping moves, it was mostly about classic hit and run. We didn't push it enough (well, we had one good tournament - the one GGFan won), and it was forgotten before it even became a thing.

Leader
That's what I see under your name... and that eden's embrace's post is going to be remembered forever.
My vote counts one, I make posts addressing issues- what else should I do? I can tell when I hit a wall with my head, what about you?

 

[Disaster Area]

That was out of the place but the (now) bold parts says a lot, this fact of no complex ban should get a real big discussion because they have sense and currently no one is willing to change the stuff because they are "set in stone", what if it was wrong all along?

The reason that stuff is "set in stone" is so that we spend our time discussing stuff which is as important as possible (talking firstly about the game, and then secondarily about stuff like bans). Spending forever talking about stuff that is largely settled is a waste of time.

Anyway, I refer you to:
#1 the last time complex bans got discussed, in this thread
#2 the banworthiness guidelines, which is not yet set in stone, and discusses when stuff should be banned.

Within the banworthiness guidelines, there are a few things to note
#1 complex bans are not explicitly ruled out
#2 the guidelines are primarily focused on Pokemon

Also, I quote this:

Certain “cheese” strategies may undermine competitive play, as they may present scenarios where players could hone their skills and then lose regardless to questionable strategies which may require low amounts of skill to execute (e.g. SwagPlay).

This is the section which would be relevant to banning wrap. Now, does it require a low amount of skill to execute? In some cases, yes (Dragonite in 1U), and in some cases no (Dragonair in 5U), although it's not an inarguable point. However, does Wrap undermine competitive play? I think that is a very big stretch at best.

In two tiers, RBY 2U, and RBY 5U, is Wrap a dominant strategy, and in one other, RBY 1U, is it prevalent but far from dominant. In RBY 6U it is used but I'm not sure if one would describe it as prevalent. Partial trapping in a form other than wrap is prevalent in RBY 4U and to a smaller extent in RBY 3U, in the form of Fire Spin, and Clamp of course is prevalent in RBY 1U.

Now, does Wrap undermine competitive play? In RBY 1U, I think maybe there is a case to make, but it is tough. Firstly, Wrap Dragonite is pretty uncommon, but in fairness, when it is used it arguably does undermine competitive play and I don't need to explain exactly why that's the case, it's pretty clear. However, Victreebel also uses Wrap in RBY 1U and I don't believe anyone thinks that it undermines competitive play there. Of course, it is obvious here to bring up AgiliWrap, which I can come to soon. In RBY 2U, does Wrap undermine competitive play? I don't know, I don't really play the metagame. In 3U, 4U, and 6U it doesn't undermine competitive play, but by default. In RBY 5U, not only does wrap (and agiliwrap) not undermine competitive play, if anything it enhances it, making the game more strategic, creating a tight game based on control and determining and executing long-term strategies.

Now, does AgiliWrap undermine competitive play? In RBY 1U, maybe, in RBY 5U, it absolutely does not, and in RBY 2U, I don't know.

 

[Disaster Area]

The former 2U tier (the Birdless, Gyarados as water-type one) was way more enjoyable - you'll start the "oh it is subjective" story and bury this under some sand, keeping it the way you like it. The main thing about the tier is that it wasn't polluted with trapping moves, it was mostly about classic hit and run. We didn't push it enough (well, we had one good tournament - the one GGFan won), and it was forgotten before it even became a thing.

really didn't like the old 2U. It is subjective. We don't tier directly based on enjoyment, we tier based on competitive depth (we have to ban stuff because it undermines competitive play). Implicit in that is the idea that "fun" = "lots of competitive depth", but I think that is reasonable.

Leader
That's what I see under your name... and that eden's embrace's post is going to be remembered forever.
My vote counts one, I make posts addressing issues- what else should I do? I can tell when I hit a wall with my head, what about you?

If you don't want me to lead, I can go.

 

[marcoasd]

really didn't like the old 2U. It is subjective. We don't tier directly based on enjoyment, we tier based on competitive depth (we have to ban stuff because it undermines competitive play). Implicit in that is the idea that "fun" = "lots of competitive depth", but I think that is reasonable.


If you don't want me to lead, I can go.

I think I explained why it had depth: it was about hit and running, which is pretty much what RBY tiers have always been about.
Also, if you realize that you failed at putting a pokemon (Rhydon, and possibly more) into the right tier... why would you persist in tiering with the current criteria?

"I can go"
That's exactly what italian politicians say, and... they don't go. They live long too...
The point is not about you going: it's about making sense, and you aren't listening. You are dropping Wambo Jambos talking like a manager (you’re not running some multinational company, again), evading the key points - just like those remarks about not listening to the community.

 

[Disaster Area]

I think I explained why it had depth: it was about hit and running, which is pretty much what RBY tiers have always been about.

Alright. Hence I didn't want to ban anything..? See, just because I didn't enjoy the tier, didn't mean I wanted to take a hammer to it. It was a good tier by the standards of our tiering system, and I respected that, but it wasn't to my tastes.

"I can go"
That's exactly what italian politicians say, and... they don't go. They live long too...
The point is not about you going: it's about making sense, and you aren't listening. You are dropping Wambo Jambos talking like a manager (you’re not running some multinational company, again), evading the key points - just like those remarks about not listening to the community.

Of course I listen, but I am allowed to disagree. And even when I'm on the losing side of an argument I should be allowed to make my case anyway. Being a leader is not caving at the first sign of a fight. Being a leader is having a vision, having a dream, and bringing other people into the fold. Being a leader is having strong beliefs as well as a willingness (even a desire) to have those beliefs challenged. Being a leader is listening to the community and working to best implement what they believe in. All of that does not mean folding to everyone's demands immediately, and it doesn't preclude me from making an impassionated argument on the opposite side of where people in the community stand. It's with my leadership that PP is where it is, and everyone knows it to the point that those words never need to be said.

If you really want me to go, I can go. I'm in the final year of university trying to acquire a masters degree anyway, I could do with the extra time.

 

[marcoasd]

Alright. Hence I didn't want to ban anything..? See, just because I didn't enjoy the tier, didn't mean I wanted to take a hammer to it. It was a good tier by the standards of our tiering system, and I respected that, but it wasn't to my tastes.


Of course I listen, but I am allowed to disagree. And even when I'm on the losing side of an argument I should be allowed to make my case anyway. Being a leader is not caving at the first sign of a fight. Being a leader is having a vision, having a dream, and bringing other people into the fold. Being a leader is having strong beliefs as well as a willingness (even a desire) to have those beliefs challenged. Being a leader is listening to the community and working to best implement what they believe in. All of that does not mean folding to everyone's demands immediately, and it doesn't preclude me from making an impassionated argument on the opposite side of where people in the community stand. It's with my leadership that PP is where it is, and everyone knows it to the point that those words never need to be said.

If you really want me to go, I can go. I'm in the final year of university trying to acquire a masters degree anyway, I could do with the extra time.

This didn't add anything new. The TL;DR of it is: "I don't care".

 

[Disaster Area]

The tl;dr is, I listen but I need more than 1 person bitching for me to change my actions, and it doesn't matter how many people there are I will only change my opinion on stuff based on merit and not by the number of people sharing an opinion.

 

[Disaster Area]

And if you want to get rid of me as a leader, then I say, go on then, do it.

 

[marcoasd]

I brought up the 40% of PO voters who wanted to ban AgiliWrap from RBY OU - which you never addressed, because "that's opinion based" (just like everything else, what a surprise!) to you and you're standing by the statement that "you won't change your opinion on stuff based on the number of people sharing an opinion", which not only means that there's no way in hell to change your opinion - it means that you didn't listen to me, to Troller, to Sceptross and to eden's embrace in the very few hours.
Most guys just don't put up I fight like I'm doing, they just quit on you (leaving you and your circle doing your stuff) and you lose a player. And they sum up silently. Clear? Uh-Uh.

 

[Disaster Area]

I brought up the 40% of PO voters who wanted to ban AgiliWrap from RBY OU - which you never addressed, because "that's opinion based" (just like everything else, what a surprise!) to you and you're standing by the statement that "you won't change your opinion on stuff based on the number of people sharing an opinion", which not only means that there's no way in hell to change your opinion - it means that you didn't listen to me, to Troller, to Sceptross and to eden's embrace in the very few hours.

What do you want me to say about it?
1) that's not a majority
2) that's on PO, and how many years ago? It doesn't really have any relevance to today's playerbase

listening to your opinion and changing my own opinion are different things. I can listen to what you're saying without changing my mind.

If u wanna call for a specific action to take (e.g., do a wrap suspect or whatever) then say it, then we can debate the merits of it, and if enough people support doing it then we should do it because that's how we do things here.

 

[Disaster Area]

Most guys just don't put up I fight like I'm doing, they just quit on you (leaving you and your circle doing your stuff) and you lose a player. And they sum up silently. Clear? Uh-Uh.

"Most guys don't put up a fight"
what do you call what everyone has been doing in the PPL threads over the past few days?

 

[Disaster Area]

That was out of the place but the (now) bold parts says a lot, this fact of no complex ban should get a real big discussion because they have sense and currently no one is willing to change the stuff because they are "set in stone", what if it was wrong all along?

Also, can I point out the irony that you're quoting a post about stuff being set in stone which is with regards to something which, after being complained about, was changed (the tiers in PPL).

 

[marcoasd]

"Most guys don't put up a fight"
what do you call what everyone has been doing in the PPL threads over the past few days?

This shows how warped your perception is: a few people in the inner circle did. I was talking about literally anyone who could be interested in playing 2U in this case - but if you didn't understand until this point, I'm probably wasting my time and that's the reason why people give up.
Can't be explain myself better than this, it's pretty brutal already.

What do you want me to say about it?
1) that's not a majority
2) that's on PO, and how many years ago? It doesn't really have any relevance to today's playerbase

listening to your opinion and changing my own opinion are different things. I can listen to what you're saying without changing my mind.

If u wanna call for a specific action to take (e.g., do a wrap suspect or whatever) then say it, then we can debate the merits of it, and if enough people support doing it then we should do it because that's how we do things here.

Damn, you just don't listen. You don't listen.
40% wanted to ban Wrap from a tier where it does BARELY SHOW, and you don't care because you think that once you have your 51% among the circle which is making decisions, your system entitles you to ignore whatever warning signal. Looking more and more like Matteo Renzi (the ultimate joke of italian politics who destroyed public services while claiming to be leftist, for reference).
That's stubborness at its finest, it's far different from having an opinion especially when you fail to realize that you need to avoid those splits.

You still didn't answer my remark on the credibility of this "great, perfect system" after we misplaced pokemon into tiers - Rhydon being the prime example - , simply because when you don't have answers you just drop irrelevant Jambo Wambos about how beatuiful your dreams are and how entitled you are to have opinions.
So, if you won't answer this directly again: you said you want to step down, so why don't you? It would be an easier solution than explaining things to someone who just won't listen.

And on a final note: I don't get why you're defending Wrap in 2U in order to make it possible in 5U, when that tier is likely to be very different anyway after changing 2U and everything else as a domino effect...

 

[Lusch]

marcoasd, seriously. Like, really... what you are doing here has nothing to do with RBY 2U...
I sincerely want you to state why you think the tier is "wrong" and what is "wrong" with it. Please... because honesstly, I have not been able to filter that from the book you've been writing, i'm sorry. I really wanna stay factual here. Please keep it to 2U. (pm me on discord if you want, I really want to know, because clearly we have different opinions here, I don't see the tiering as failed)

From what I could gather, you made a lot of arguments based on history. What does it matter? What does it matter what people used to play in old RBY? (the mechanics were not even correct, neither for Body Slam nor for Wrap mostly, and RBY2K10 had Wrap banned, I believe, so of course UU looked different). In my honest opinion (even though it seems to be "classical" RBY; which I can see what you mean by that), I don't understand why every RBY tier has to be hit and run or whatever you called it? 3U is very much hit and run, current 2U isn't. What's the big deal? Does every tier have to be a copy of the other, but with weaker mons? (except 1U, because no need for type diversity, cause Chansey)

I'm really trying to understand, please help me underatdn your point of view. And I assure you, flaming DA does not help me understand.

respectfully, Lusch

 

[The Idiot Ninja]

Being a leader is not caving at the first sign of a fight. Being a leader is having a vision, having a dream, and bringing other people into the fold. Being a leader is having strong beliefs as well as a willingness (even a desire) to have those beliefs challenged. Being a leader is listening to the community and working to best implement what they believe in. All of that does not mean folding to everyone's demands immediately, and it doesn't preclude me from making an impassionated argument on the opposite side of where people in the community stand. It's with my leadership that PP is where it is, and everyone knows it to the point that those words never need to be said.

If you really want me to go, I can go. I'm in the final year of university trying to acquire a masters degree anyway, I could do with the extra time.

i wasn't going to comment but holy fucking shit, this spiel is something else. if your opinion is so different from the community's (and it most often is), you're not leading anyone. you're just using your position to get people to follow you.


if you're a true leader right now, you respect the community's strong questions about the state of 2U and general ideas behind retiering as a whole - why did Rhydon end up in old 2U? is the 1U line in the proper place? do you actually know what you're doing, or just following what 'feels right' to you? can we have a discussion about the policies, when they've been shown to be faulty in places?

I really don't know why the 1U line is placed where it is. Why is it not immediately below Slowbro? Or immediately below Jynx? Or much lower, after Moltres and Articuno? Can we discuss this and establish a proper, logical way to go about retiering, now that we have an opportunity to restart from scratch with 2U and lowtiers as a whole?