GSC OU Does every team need a Lax in GSC 1U/OU?

[supercube64]

So I originally deleted this thread, but decided to repost it. So I feel that you really don't need a lax on your team to be honest. First of all most GSC OU or 1U teams carry atleast 2 or 3 lax checks on their team. Which can make it difficult for lax to get in (especially depending on the set your running). Also many people carry roar and whirlwind users on their team as well, in case of setup sweepers. Finally depending on the set you run for lax, you can be left wide open for a particular mon in your opponents team to exploit your weakness. Even Mixed lax (despite how good mixed lax is at checking its threats) can be checked by certain mons.

 

[Disaster Area]

I'm not a GSC expert and can't find a specific thread on it though on either mount silver or smogon... I've seen it come up in discussion before (I remember Bedschibaer giving a pretty good short explanation) ... basically it comes down to it being so good that it can usually do something for your team better than whatever else you might want to do it... I'm not explaining it very well though. :/

 

[supercube64]

O

I'm not a GSC expert and can't find a specific thread on it though on either mount silver or smogon... I've seen it come up in discussion before (I remember Bedschibaer giving a pretty good short explanation) ... basically it comes down to it being so good that it can usually do something for your team better than whatever else you might want to do it... I'm not explaining it very well though. :/

Oh don't get me wrong. I'm not denying how amazing Lax is. I can see the guy's point. I'm just saying people act like it's mandatory to make a successful team.

 

[Ortheore]

Hmmm I'm not sure I'd say Lax is literally required for GSC. You can still check everything with other pokemon and you can still generate offense via other means.

In practice though? It's definitely necessary. It's as simple as any team without Snorlax being significantly worse than those with it. Defensively it can fit almost any role you can conceive of- it checks literally every special attacker in the tier outside of one set (AA Vap). It even checks some mixed attackers well (King being the most notable). That basically leaves pure physical attackers that it can't be useful for (depends on the situation). Offensively it possesses similar levels of versatility, with the caveat being that they're only accessible at teambuilder rather than mid-battle. Still, it can be tailored to do anything your team needs and provide any blend of wallbreaking and sweeping you need. That tailored to suit your team's needs is a big deal- the reason most teams run at least two Lax checks is because they need those checks to handle Lax. Even then things can go wrong- one of your checks gets worn down or paralysed and suddenly you're in a much more precarious position. On top of this, many Lax checks are really passive, which is also exploitable.

I disagree with you when you say that Lax finds a tough time to come in, as it checks practically half the tier unless Drum or something. Likewise, it's not particularly exploitable- the only thing that springs to mind is Machamp as in it's something where you're like "oh shit I just let that in". And of course, Champ doesn't like taking Lax's attacks at all. No other Lax check is as threatening, but many Lax checks are deadweight offensively (e.g. UmbTank) and/or prone to getting worn down (Lix/TTar)

tl;dr Lax is both really strong and really versatile, a combination nothing else can hope to replace, while all its checks have flaws

 

[supercube64]

Hmmm I'm not sure I'd say Lax is literally required for GSC. You can still check everything with other pokemon and you can still generate offense via other means.

In practice though? It's definitely necessary. It's as simple as any team without Snorlax being significantly worse than those with it. Defensively it can fit almost any role you can conceive of- it checks literally every special attacker in the tier outside of one set (AA Vap). It even checks some mixed attackers well (King being the most notable). That basically leaves pure physical attackers that it can't be useful for (depends on the situation). Offensively it possesses similar levels of versatility, with the caveat being that they're only accessible at teambuilder rather than mid-battle. Still, it can be tailored to do anything your team needs and provide any blend of wallbreaking and sweeping you need. That tailored to suit your team's needs is a big deal- the reason most teams run at least two Lax checks is because they need those checks to handle Lax. Even then things can go wrong- one of your checks gets worn down or paralysed and suddenly you're in a much more precarious position. On top of this, many Lax checks are really passive, which is also exploitable.

I disagree with you when you say that Lax finds a tough time to come in, as it checks practically half the tier unless Drum or something. Likewise, it's not particularly exploitable- the only thing that springs to mind is Machamp as in it's something where you're like "oh shit I just let that in". And of course, Champ doesn't like taking Lax's attacks at all. No other Lax check is as threatening, but many Lax checks are deadweight offensively (e.g. UmbTank) and/or prone to getting worn down (Lix/TTar)

tl;dr Lax is both really strong and really versatile, a combination nothing else can hope to replace, while all its checks have flaws

Very compelling argument. When I said Lax had a hard time coming in however, I was referring to the fact that because many people carry 2 or more lax checks, it can make it difficult for lax to wreck house immediately. Of course in no way am I denying or underestimating Snorlax's immense power. Not only is this thing unpredictable, but it can sweep and annihilate entire teams, as well as being able to fit on any team. I'm just saying certain teams can do fine without him. At least in my opinion.

 

[Bedschibaer]

I see where you are coming from, everyone tries to carry several answers for lax, yet lax is still the defining force of this metagame. I'd say that's just a testament of how good it actually is. Gscers aren't dumb and don't just use lax because some kid said it's mandatory in some guide years ago.

What makes Snorlax so seemingly neccessary is the variety of roles it performs. It's not just a setup sweeper, it's not just a wall, it's not just a resttalker, it's not just a wallbreaker, it's all of those and probably even more. If they have a solid check for your snorlax you have the ability to use it for its defensive merits and search for a different part to win the game.

No mon is invincible in gsc and just because your lax can't kill whatever mon is walling it right now that doesn't mean that it will be able to survive the match at all. A good player is usually able to pressure walls in the long run, Lax is just a part of either the breaking or the benefiting, not your solitary wincondition.

Teams without Lax are possible, pretty much all GSCers came to the consensus that it is just so good that everyone uses it. If you got a team without lax the odds are that with lax it would just be better. It's just do dominant and good that I wouldn't want to not have it while my opponent has access to it. Feels like too much of a disadvantage to me. Snorlax is theoretically not mandatory because of some stigma, it is practically mandatory if you want to battle on even grounds most of the time though.

 

[supercube64]

I see where you are coming from, everyone tries to carry several answers for lax, yet lax is still the defining force of this metagame. I'd say that's just a testament of how good it actually is. Gscers aren't dumb and don't just use lax because some kid said it's mandatory in some guide years ago.

What makes Snorlax so seemingly neccessary is the variety of roles it performs. It's not just a setup sweeper, it's not just a wall, it's not just a resttalker, it's not just a wallbreaker, it's all of those and probably even more. If they have a solid check for your snorlax you have the ability to use it for its defensive merits and search for a different part to win the game.

No mon is invincible in gsc and just because your lax can't kill whatever mon is walling it right now that doesn't mean that it will be able to survive the match at all. A good player is usually able to pressure walls in the long run, Lax is just a part of either the breaking or the benefiting, not your solitary wincondition.

Teams without Lax are possible, pretty much all GSCers came to the consensus that it is just so good that everyone uses it. If you got a team without lax the odds are that with lax it would just be better. It's just do dominant and good that I wouldn't want to not have it while my opponent has access to it. Feels like too much of a disadvantage to me. Snorlax is theoretically not mandatory because of some stigma, it is practically mandatory if you want to battle on even grounds most of the time though.

Wow well said! I use a team without Lax, and it seemed to be doing just fine against other teams with Lax (probably cause I have like 3 Lax checks though) I see your point though. lax is definitely the meta. I'm pretty sure no one would argue that. Hes the king of GSC, and for good reason.

 

[magic9mushroom]

So I originally deleted this thread, but decided to repost it. So I feel that you really don't need a lax on your team to be honest. First of all most GSC OU or 1U teams carry atleast 2 or 3 lax checks on their team. Which can make it difficult for lax to get in (especially depending on the set your running). Also many people carry roar and whirlwind users on their team as well, in case of setup sweepers. Finally depending on the set you run for lax, you can be left wide open for a particular mon in your opponents team to exploit your weakness. Even Mixed lax (despite how good mixed lax is at checking its threats) can be checked by certain mons.

Okay, nice to see this came back.

First point - GSC 1U actually doesn't exist yet, hilariously enough. Everyone pretty much agrees that OU isn't a "balanced meta", but we can't seem to agree on how to deal with that. Ubers = 1U is one possibility, but nobody's really enthusiastic about it because while reasonably balanced in terms of how good different Pokemon are (Lugia, Mewtwo, Mew and Snorlax are all kinda on a level; Lax keeps up with the rest because of LK) nobody really enjoys playing it very much. I'm honestly still behind it, if only because its 2U would be pretty similar to most of the "ban Snorlax and Electrics" proposals' 1U and thus there's little downside, but whatever.

Second point (which others have touched on, but nobody's elucidated completely) is that while most teams prepare extensively for Lax and therefore it isn't generally a giant offensive threat out of the gate (there are exceptions, such as STAB/Earthquake/Belly Drum/Lovely Kiss and Double-Edge/Flamethrower/Toxic/Rest), it's got defensive utility as well, and momentum-grabbing defensive utility at that. It is kinda ridiculously bulky, particularly on the special side, and thus generically neuters most special threats. Indeed, the most common single set of Lax in contemporary use is RestTalk CurseLax (Double-Edge/Curse/Rest/Sleep Talk) - this set has next-to-no offensive capability since all ordinary Lax answers work on it, but it provides great defensive strength against the Legendary Electrics, Exeggutor and Baton Pass, and some against Nidoking, Vaporeon, Tyranitar and opposing Snorlax. It also, crucially, steals momentum like you wouldn't believe because it forces predictable switches to very unthreatening Pokemon. Once an opposing CurseLax starts Cursing, you have very few offensive options - Machamp has some chance of critting and OHKOing Snorlax, but you're essentially betting the game on that chance, and CurseRoarers threaten a counter-offensive (by Cursing up and then Roaring Lax out) but are in almost all cases very specially fragile and easily forced out. Pretty much everything else either has no offensive prowess or simply gets steamrollered by Lax. Thus, a situation where an opponent has offensive momentum and you're reacting is very often reversed into one where you have momentum and they're reacting; this ability to just generically turn the tables on half the meta is really only shared with Zapdos, and Zapdos isn't as good at it because it's not as bulky and Raikou, its best counter, exerts more pressure than most of Snorlax's checks.

 

[Disaster Area]

First point - GSC 1U actually doesn't exist yet, hilariously enough. Everyone pretty much agrees that OU isn't a "balanced meta", but we can't seem to agree on how to deal with that. Ubers = 1U is one possibility, but nobody's really enthusiastic about it because while reasonably balanced in terms of how good different Pokemon are (Lugia, Mewtwo, Mew and Snorlax are all kinda on a level; Lax keeps up with the rest because of LK) nobody really enjoys playing it very much. I'm honestly still behind it, if only because its 2U would be pretty similar to most of the "ban Snorlax and Electrics" proposals' 1U and thus there's little downside, but whatever.

Well I put GSC OU as GSC 1U for now but it's open to change. I just went with an executive decision since we've had such big issues rallying a playerbase and any alternatives have had a hard time getting off of the ground and no vets other than maybe the no longer very present jorgen really have any interest in changing it. Of course when we get more of a playerbase (we got a few new players on here - amphorce, supercube64, lostwoods, kaisser - I think that's all, who're interested in GSCing) we can bring it back up and we should decide if we want to explore alternative possibilities, or if we want to just accept it as is, and move onto 2U.

Your second point is a great point btw

 

[Enigami]

Well, not NOBODY enjoys playing it, I enjoyed GSC Ubers quite a bit (heck, I was the one who first suggested GSC 1U = Ubers), and I thought I remember a few other GSCers enjoyed it too. Regardless of whatever is decided for GSC 1U, I'd want the traditional GSC OU preserved as a meta ("GSC Classic" or something) if it doesn't end up GSC 1U.

 

[Disaster Area]

Well, not NOBODY enjoys playing it, I enjoyed GSC Ubers quite a bit (heck, I was the one who first suggested GSC 1U = Ubers), and I thought I remember a few other GSCers enjoyed it too. Regardless of whatever is decided for GSC 1U, I'd want the traditional GSC OU preserved as a meta ("GSC Classic" or something) if it doesn't end up GSC 1U.

Smogon can preserve the GSC OU if we need to. And yeah Isa Conflict M Dragon BKC all enjoy GSC Ubers, but it's not a question of enjoyment surely.

 

[Isa]

i love gsc ubers

"Indeed, the most common single set of Lax in contemporary use is RestTalk CurseLax (Double-Edge/Curse/Rest/Sleep Talk)"
source pls.

 

[magic9mushroom]

Well, not NOBODY enjoys playing it, I enjoyed GSC Ubers quite a bit (heck, I was the one who first suggested GSC 1U = Ubers), and I thought I remember a few other GSCers enjoyed it too. Regardless of whatever is decided for GSC 1U, I'd want the traditional GSC OU preserved as a meta ("GSC Classic" or something) if it doesn't end up GSC 1U.

Smogon can preserve the GSC OU if we need to. And yeah Isa Conflict M Dragon BKC all enjoy GSC Ubers, but it's not a question of enjoyment surely.

I stand corrected.

i love gsc ubers

"Indeed, the most common single set of Lax in contemporary use is RestTalk CurseLax (Double-Edge/Curse/Rest/Sleep Talk)"
source pls.

Source

(I did specify single set.)

 

[Jame$ G]

No, you do not absolutely "need" a Snorlax to build a competitive team in gen 2 OU. But it really is that good that you're undertaking a handicap by not using it. We did no lax tournament a while ago on Mount Silver and I did a fair bit of testing on P.O. with no Lax teams against regular OU teams and it actually worked a lot better than I had expected; so many teams are centralised around countering Snorlax's the faster pace of a no lax team can catch a lot of players out. That being said, an OU team without Snorlax could probably never be considered in "ultimate status". In a nutshell Snorlax is so key for special defense, so if you're going no lax I feel Raikou, Blissey or both are necessary, or you will simply have no answers for countering your opponents Raikou and Zapdos, they just pick off your entire roster one by one.

 

[Jame$ G]

Raikou, cloyster/starmie, quagsire, skarmory, gengar, blissey is the classic example of a well functioning no Snorlax setup.

 

[Jame$ G]

And actually I must mention; some player on Pokemon Showdown, who is nothing short of ridiculous killed one of my best OU teams twice with this the other day:

Ampharos, forretress, starmie, Steelix, exeggutor, miltank.

 

[magic9mushroom]

What was your team?

 

[Jame$ G]

Raikou, cloyster, gengar, snorlax, skarmory, rhydon. It wasn't an exceptionally sweeping kinda team but it had 2 spinners and just crippled my ability to use Toxic and spike damage then out stalled me. Still pretty impressive for a team with no Lax or legendaries. I've only come across 3 players with that play style in my life; VIL, Assasin Celia, & Crystal. I'd almost put money down it was one of them.

 

[RBYer]

I made a few teams without Snorlax back in the day, but I'm not sure that they were better for not having Snorlax.

To James G: The thing about Pokemon teams in general is that you can't really judge how good a team is by how well it does against the specific team you have out. There is a little Rock-Paper-Scissors thing going on that is done with team selection outside of battle, and if your team is Rock, and your opponent's team has something resembling Paper, it doesn't necessarily mean their team is optimal because it countered yours.

I would be interested in their specific team because I think it's only from analyzing their team that we can see how good it was and whether or not it would benefit from the addition of a Snorlax and maybe some adjustments outside of that.

 

[Jame$ G]

Yeah that's right; dominant teams emerge because they are good, they have the broadest, strongest spectrums of what they can beat. Metagaming then adapts to target the popular format rather than being a universally competent setup. And aforementioned team certainly had a good matchup against mine; a few mixed attackers with fire moves probably would have given it a hard time. I think I can remember it:

1. Ampharos
Thunder wave, thunderbolt, fire punch, dynamic punch

2. Forretress
Spikes, rapid spin, hp bug, (didn't see the last slot, probably xplosion)

3. Starmie
Thunder wave, psychic, surf, rapid spin

4. Steelix
Curse, earthquake, roar, explosion

5. Exeggutor

Sleep powder, leech seed, psychic (unsure of last, prob explosion again)

6. Miltank
Growl, body slam, heal bell, milk drink