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  3. Tiers

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RBY 5U (Under4U) Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Ortheore, May 10, 2016.

  1. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    With 4U being decided upon, the time has come to turn our sights to the next tier, 5A (or 5U as it will eventually be known).

    Use this thread to discuss what pokemon and strategies you think will be viable in this tier. Most importantly, if you feel that a pokemon is broken, this is the place to call for a suspect of it

    1U - Banned Pokémon: Mew, Mewtwo
    2P - Banned Pokémon: Alakazam, Chansey, Cloyster, Dragonite, Exeggutor, Gengar, Golem, Jolteon, Jynx, Lapras, Slowbro, Snorlax, Starmie, Tauros, Zapdos
    2U - Banned Pokémon: Articuno, Moltres
    3U - Banned Pokémon: Dodrio, Gyarados, Haunter, Hypno, Kadabra, Kangaskhan, Persian, Poliwrath, Raichu, Raticate, Rhydon, Tentacruel, Victreebel
    4U - Banned Pokemon: Aerodactyl, Charizard, Clefable, Dewgong, Dugtrio, Electabuzz, Exeggcute, Fearow, Golduck, Kingler, Mr. Mime, Pinsir, Poliwhirl, Sandslash, Vaporeon, Venusaur, Wigglytuff
    5A- Banned Pokemon: Abra, Arcanine, Blastoise, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Omastar, Porygon, Rapidash, Scyther, Slowpoke, Staryu, Tangela, Venomoth

    Everything burns- The fire types of RBY all appear to be grouped closely in terms of power. While Dash and Arcanine stuck in 4U, that still left some incredibly potent threats to play with in 5A. A big difference here is that the overall strength of Water types in 5A appears to be considerably lower than in 4U, which means we could easily see Ninetales and Flareon running amok.

    So about those explosions...- One of my predictions at the start of 4U was that explosion would emerge as a big threat. Suffice to say that has not happened at all, and all of the threats that I had my eye on at the start of 4U have dropped to 5A. Perhaps this is their time to shine? Gastly, Graveler, Muk, Weezing and Shellder are all of note here.

    Fisticuffs at the ready- Another of my failed predictions for 4U was that fighting types would emerge from the darkness. The dominance of Nidoking and a surprising amount of Psychics flying about tanked that prediction, but perhaps we'll see it borne to fruition in 5A?

    Leads- Gastly and Poliwag stand out easily as leads, due to their speed, access to Hypnosis and ability to threaten opposing teams. Fire types should also be effective leads due to their speed and power. Beyond that, I really don't know. Maybe electrics, but it remains to be seen how effective they'll be, given their lack of coverage.

    Random thoughts- Wak and Graveler could be really good here. As mentioned, a lot of good water types got caught in 4U, while most other ground responses either don't really check them at all or should be prone to getting worn down. Who's spreading para? Grass types can, as can Electrics though in the latter case it's unclear what their relationship with GravWak will be. Another significant group of para spreaders are the Wrappers(!), Arbok and Dragonair.

    Let me know if I've made any errors here. Also I've bolded pokemon that intrigue me

    Ivysaur
    Charmeleon
    Wartortle
    Butterfree
    Beedrill
    Pidgeot
    Rattata
    Spearow
    Arbok
    Pikachu
    Sandshrew
    Nidorina
    Nidorino
    Clefairy
    Ninetales
    Jigglypuff
    Golbat
    Vileplume
    Parasect

    Venonat
    Diglett
    Meowth
    Psyduck
    Primeape
    Growlithe
    Poliwag
    Machamp
    Weepinbell

    Tentacool
    Graveler
    Ponyta
    Magneton
    Farfetch'd
    Doduo
    Seel
    Muk
    Shellder
    Gastly

    Onix
    Drowzee
    Krabby
    Electrode
    Marowak
    Hitmonlee

    Hitmonchan
    Lickitung
    Weezing
    Rhyhorn
    Seadra
    Seaking
    Magmar
    Magikarp
    Ditto
    Flareon
    Omanyte
    Kabutops
    Dragonair
     
  2. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    We already played some games with Enigami and DA with all C rank 4U mons banned, so we know some of the things that might work, I'm probably forgetting a lot:

    Seadra is pretty much the strongest pokemon in the tier. It's fast, hits hard, and doesn't have any consistent switch in, and the things that can threat it one on one are easy to check. The best method seemed like forcing it to rest and go to something that can deal damage to it.

    Vileplume looks like the best sleeper, can notably force out sleeping seadra. Butterfree is the second best sleeper.

    The Fire competition is between Ninetales and Magmar and not really Flareon. Magmar's access to Psychic allows it not to be walled by Graveler, and it can hit waters too. Speed hurts Flareon.

    Graveler, Diglett, and Wak seem all fine, they do their role differently.

    Kabutops I tried and it's tough to make work out, a lot of the teams want to be hostile to Seadra (like in 4U and king) which means there's a lot of stuff that annoy tops.

    Pokemon such as Drowzee and Machamp seem solid. Psyduck and Tentacool can also find some use.

    Electrode is a good anti lead, and a good pokemon in general, Pikachu seems usuable. Poliwag works good as a lead and could be used outside that spot. Gastly still seems to have counters, less psychics, still eqs

    All of this was very vague but it's a starting point. Overall a lot of stuff seems viable.
     
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  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] MY TIER!!!! [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    pretty much that.

    You can even go double water, throw in a bit of [​IMG]
     
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  4. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Well, in all honesty I haven't played a game, but it feels like seadra can't be countered at all unless we either spam water types (Seaking, Wartortle and stuff like that), or ban ice moves from its moveset.
    Both Weezing and Muk are outsped and 3HKO'd; Gastly is outsped and likely to be 2HKO'd by Hydro Pump.
     
  5. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Something I made earlier:

    Paralysis
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Sleep
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Boost (Atk)
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Boost (SpA)
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Boost (Spe)
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Boom
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Partial Trapping
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Psychic
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Possible NFEs of interest:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    Seadra is definitely the strongest thing in the tier, and possibly suspect worthy. At the moment it feels like Seadra + second Water + Electric is mandatory here.

    Magmar I think is going to be the best lead Fire (who'd have guessed?). 95/85 offenses combined with STAB+Psychic makes it threatening even to lead Poliwag (Body Slam + Hyper Beam KOs), plus there's the para chance that cripples it). It also doesn't hurt that Electrode, Ninetales, Diglett and Primeape are the only things left that are faster than it. Ninetales I think will stay relevant due to stronger Fire Blast nuking + not being outsped by Diglett, but Flareon I think is just too slow to matter. If Ninetales and Magmar both make the cut for 5U, I'm interested to see if that speed issue means even Ponyta will challenge it in 6U.

    For NFEs, I expect Diglett, Dragonair, Drowzee, Gastly, Graveler, Pikachu, Poliwag and Weepinbell to make an impact, with Shellder, Tentacool and Wartortle as niche picks. Clefairy is quite interesting with its status moves+coverage, but I think Gastly and Drowzee are going to outclass it for now. I'll post more thoughts later.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
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  6. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    It looks more balanced than it is on sheet. I used Ninetales, Seadra, Seaking, Machamp, Vileplume, Graveler; Peasounay had Magmar, Drowzee and Electrode too.
     
  7. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    It is, even though a Seadra freeze is tough to overcome. It would be a shame if games are too much decided by this, because the tier seems fun.

    Bunch of thoughts:

    I'm liking Electrode. It's walled by grounds and grass types but it has the ability to pressure every pokemon that aren't these types. It seems like a very strong lead too. It pairs well with a Fire type to take care of Grasses. It means Graveler can annoy you a lot, but if we start to have double water for seadra that shouldn't be too much of a problem... Magmar and Ninetales definitely are the fire types of the tier. I also like how Vileplume worked out for me.

    Seaking is a mini Seadra with better attack, running both is fine. Gastly checks Vileplume/Weepinbell but dislikes paralysis. Graveler can work even with all the waters, it probably has a tough time against other grounds (diglett/wak). Drowzee is very decent. Poliwag doesn't have a perfect check like Slowpoke in 4U, it annoys everything. Magneton seems to be a fine answer though. Lusch used Hitmonlee, a good idea I think since Machamp is slow, and it outspeeds Seadra.

    I wonder how Thunderbolt Dragonair does in the tier. Dragon isn't a bad typing to have it can allow you to switch in a bunch of stuff. Also I'll try to play other remaining waters: Psyduck, Tentacool, maybe Wartortle and Krabby, I didn't theorise much.

    Also some mysterious guy came in Violet with the name "RBY 5U", he didn't want to tell me who he was lol but the point is he used muk + weezing in a complete madman strategy and their movepool/typing/boom seems fine too. A lot of stuff seems viable really but is the tier really gonna be that diverse when you have to teambuild with the "I gotta deal with Seadra" thought?
     
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  8. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Psyduck is basically outclassed by Poliwag, same for Wartortle who only has Body Slam over other waters (shame on no EQ). Tentacool is hit hard by physical moves (like Double Edge, idk if Seadra has it but Seaking should); I'm skeptical on basic mons, and I think Seel to be the one with the best chances overall because it's decently bulky (Shellder can't take special attacks) and immune to freeeeezes what a disappointment. Pikachu has to SToss Vileplume multiple times, Surf has 60% to KO Graveler, zzz.
    Dragonair is manhandled by Blizzard I guess, hates paralysis and no stab (I wouldn't stake my money on Arbok, either).

    Hitmonlee, I'm not 100% sure: Machamp has EQ and lives 2 Seadra's HPumps (Hitmonlee is frail and gets 2HKO'd by Surf); crits might help Bruce Lee.
    Lols at Primeape 3HKOing Thunderbolt (vs Seadra), Primeape has Hyper Beam and better stats, Hitmonlee has HJK but TBolt kinda makes up for it vs Seadra (Primeape has Rock Slide, but it's not likely to matter). All in all, I'd pick Primeape over Hitmonlee.

    What about sleepers? Ivysaur has troubles with Blizzard and takes a lot from Graveler, Vileplume looks standard (but it's pretty awful imo: 3HKO'd by Graveler, but having double powders makes the cut and Weepinbell is frail), Butterfree has bad stats. Parasect... Poliwhirl has its merits while Gastly has weaknesses... IMO Gastly's chances are really depending on Muk/Weezing's usage %.

    I think Pidgeot is not worth the risk to face Graveler, as it sucks vs elctrics, waters...
    Kabutops, idk... it's slower than Seadra, but Surf won't 2HKO it. It should outclass Lickitung.

    I'd keep track of mons we expect to do well (or at least, the ones we did use and didn't suck): Ninetales, Seadra, Seaking, Machamp, Vileplume, Graveler, Magmar, Drowzee, Electrode.
    To be watched: Kabutops, Hitmonlee, Primeape, Magneton, Marowak, Muk, Weezing
    NFE: Pikachu, Seel... :S

    PS: Primeape has Hyper Beam and better stats, Hitmonlee has HJK but TBolt kinda makes up for it vs Seadra (Primeape has Rock Slide, but it's not likely to matter). Machamp has to rely on EQ+EQ+HB vs Seadra, and it could carry Fire Blast EQ/HB/Blast/Slam looks good even without Submission). All in all, I'd pick Primeape over Hitmonlee and maybe Machamp too (well switching into Earthquake is harder than TBolt...).

    Marowak does better than Graveler vs fighting types and it's faster, but... is it really enough? Blizzard has close to no use.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2016
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  9. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Psyduck does get Amnesia, but I do agree that it's probably almost entirely outclassed by Poliwag and even if that wasn't the case I don't think it's strong enough.

    You must be joking about Seel though. Mono-Water-typing with 65/45/55/70/40 stats, when you've got SEAKING with 80/92/65/80/68 stats (higher than Seel in EVERY area), and almost the same movepool except Seaking gets Agility, which can be handy if the opponent has a Pika or Electrode around. Seriously, Seel is about the worst NFE you could claim to be the one with the 'best chances'.

    Wartortle is also almost completely inferior to Seaking too, the only reason why I'm not 100% certain about it yet is because Seismic Toss does more damage than Double-Edge to Seadra (and without recoil) and might be 'better' at pushing it into Resting or something.

    Tentacool definitely isn't a counter to Seadra, it's a weak check at best. It's viability would be entirely from Wrap if it ends up viable at all I think.

    Pikachu may need to Seismic Toss, but it atleast can actually 4HKO Vileplume without using Explosion. Electrode and Magneton can barely even 4HKO Vileplume with Hyper Beam, and that's before factoring recharge turns. In my experience so far, it hasn't been too hard to wear down Vileplume enough with other attackers or even just S-Tossing Vileplume on the switch. Pika's actually a solid contender for the Electric slot because Surf + Seismic Toss, but it's squishiness and weak attacks without Super-Effective hits that keeps Electrode and Magneton as competition. That and being outsped by base 91-100s where Electrode doesn't + Electrode's Explosion. On the other hand, not being a free switch for Marowak and Graveler is really awesome. Honestly, Magneton I think is the Electric that'll struggle the most here.

    There is almost no reason to ever use Ivysaur when you've got Weepinbell. Weepinbell has Wrap + Stun Spore + higher Atk, Ivy's got 5 speed that only matters vs. Weepinbell and Machamp. If Oma wasn't 4U, then it might have been viable to some extent. Butterfree's stats wouldn't be an issue if it had more speed, but it doesn't so it's largely outclassed by Vileplume as a dual powder and Gastly/Poliwag for sleepers. Flying-typing can come in handy against Marowak, Graveler (with prediction) and Vileplume, so it might still be viable. Parasect is still a joke while Vileplume is around and Fire leads are still a thing. Poliwag is definitely much scarier now that mons like Porygon and especially Slowpoke are gone, it should definitely be a threat. Gastly has a decent chance to survive 2 Magmar Psychics which should help it as a sleeper lead, plus Vileplume is always a thing it can pester.

    Pidgeot's definitely gonna have trouble, Kabutops is a major issue and Graveler seems to have finally reached the point of viability.

    For Marowak, Blizzard definitely has use (for it atleast), it 3HKOs Vileplume + there's always Freeze-hax. No 4x weaknesses are also helpful as are the lack of Fighting/EQ weaknesses, and its high Defense seems to be sufficient for taking physical attacks. I think Graveler and Marowak will both be solid picks here.

    Can't think of anything else to add, but outside of thinking Seel being viable (seriously, wut?) I think your predictions make sense.
     
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  10. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Yeah, the Seel idea started with the freeze immunity illusion, without it it's useless to the point that even Wartortle is better, lol (Horsea>Seaking>Wartortle and you don't want more than 3 anways).
    Pikachu and Diglett are just too frail, just take a look at Ninetale's damage on them... Pikachu has a small niche due to TWave.

    Marowak outspeeds Drowzee. I'm not sure it's going to have that many chances to take advantage of its defense, but at least it takes special attacks a bit better as well.
    And Yes, EQ is a bit short of 3HKOing Vileplume and that's the only small niche for Blizzard. It's very small because it's a 90% move that lets water types in. All in all Marowak is at least diverse (I still don't think it's better than Graveler).
     
  11. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Hmm, going off discussion here I should stop underestimating water types. Pretty much all of them get Water+Ice, which hits literally everything except... water types. Then there's the fact that Grass and Electric are so limited which doesn't help
     
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  12. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Played some games with DG9 plus did some theorymon.

    I'm really not feeling Drowzee at A rank, yeah Psychic+Dual Status and everything but it's just so slow and frail.

    Primeape looks like it'll be a good lead. Out of the current likely leads, only Ninetales and Seadra beat it. Thunderbolt 2HKOs Poliwag, Submission does too and can be worth the inaccuracy/recoil if you catch Graveler or Marowak on the switch, Rock Slide can 2HKO Magmar before it gets burned out, Seaking is KO'd with Thunderbolt before it can KO with Surf and Pikachu only threatens with Thunder Wave. It has pretty good coverage with Submission/Thunderbolt/Rock Slide/Normal-type Attack and with base 95 Speed it makes a pretty good revenge killer.

    Dragonair's pretty good despite the Ice-weakness. Aside from Agiliwrap, it seems to get pretty good mileage out of its resistances. Fires, Grasses and Electrics (including Pika) have issues getting past it, and with Surf + Thunder Wave it's not too hard to spread para. I'm also curious to see if going fully cancerous with agiliwrap Dragonair + Dratini will work.

    Parasect's got Spore, Slash (with only a 47-ish% chance of crit) and Growth over Vileplume, but that 4x Fire weakness... Plus Graveler outspeeding and 2HKOing with Rock Slide is not good. If the enemy's Fire is eliminated though, I think Growth + Mega Drain could be pretty threatening.
     
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  13. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Yeah Primeape can work as a lead too.
    I don't know how Drowzee didn't work for you: I guess you had something like Marowak against every single game (I think that's basically the only mon that puts Drowzee in trouble, highlighting the flaws you mentioned).
    Psychic is an unresisted move in this tier, unless your opponent has a Drowzee his own of course; if that's not the case, Drowzee could be even the best tool to pressure Seadra on the Rest.

    Idk about Dragonair, as it is off the radar right now.
    I think only three guaranteed slots to be Seadra, Vileplume and Poliwag; then Drowzee (common), Seaking (common), ground type (common), fire type (common), fighting type (a bit less common), Electrode (uncommon), Muk (rare). Basically, the 5 commons types for 3 slots.
    Dragonair has many matchups where it is at risk in case it misses or setups (Seadra, Seaking, Poliwag, Drowzee, Vileplume, Electrode) and a couple where it is at low risk or even threatening (ground, fire, fighting); it's easily outsped before Agility.
    Its moveset is tricky: Thunderbolt and Blizzard are good moves (Surf is specific for Graveler and fire types -3hko though- who you shouldn't have particular troubles to setup on, or use TWave, while on the other hand Surf is resisted by waters + Vileplume too), I'd definitely use them over physical ones.

    I'm pretty sure Dratini won't be used, and Parasect is going to have that small niche you mentioned (Vileplume, what a disappointment).
     
  14. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Wow poliwag's really auto slot? Also you don't mention Pidgeot? I was thinking maybe Pidgeot + Marowak as a good core since you lure Rock Slide from Graveler if you come across it and Marowak seems like a great way to abuse that...

    btw saying this having played a total approximately 0 or 1 games... I've watched a couple though.
     
  15. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Poliwag is a fast water that learns Hypnosis, Amnesia and Blizzard. What do you want more than that?

    Pidgeot should actually be viable, but still... leave alone the fact that Graveler walls it: it doesn't even get Drill Peck...

    It's on the losing end against:
    -Ninetales (outsped and eat that burn; fails to 2HKO, could get 2HKO'd after recoils)
    -Seadra, Seaking (Blizzard 2HKOs)
    Electrode...

    On the winning end thanks to DE+HB 2hkoing:
    Primeape (outsped, TBolt/Rock Slide 3hko)
    Magmar (outsped, mind the burn)

    Machamp: Pidgeot's faster and 3HKOs (DE+DE+HB), but Machamp could win via Rock Slidex2+recoil
    Marowak (3HKOs, it's at medium risk of being 2HKO'd from Blizzard after recoil)
    Muk: tricky calcs, Explosion...

    Flat out beats only Vileplume, Poliwag, Drowzee and Hitmonlee (don't use).
    It really hopes for crits and misses, its opponent can stay in pretty safely and you can't really double switch predicting Graveler to come in. Marowak is a good partner, it's worth testing it (Graveler is pretty free to Body Slam, though).
     
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  16. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    What are ppl's thoughts on Dragonair as a suspect? I'm considering it atm, AgiWrap is not only, well, AgiWrap, but it's incredibly easy to set up and Dragonair is also pretty threatening besides that, making it far more multidimensional and consistent than Dnite in OU
     
  17. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Poor Dnair, it hasn't been worth of any kind of consideration until this late...
    I'd rather make a case for AgililiWrap (or even Wrap alone) for being "uncompetitive/ blatantly RNG based" in a metagame with little access to TWave, but banning the pokemon itself is quite saddening imo.

    My first glance at the matter suggests me that Dnair could be even not OP: mainly, attack stat line leaves a lot to be desired (well, the rest of the tier has restrained stats too). I think it takes roughly 5-6 cycles of Wrap for Dnair to put Seadra/Seaking into HB range, 5 for Vileplume (+Blizzard)... mathematicians give calcs, please.

    More importantly, I think nobody went for Toxic strategies so far... of course Toxic *something that could stomp Vileplume*, and to a lesser extent Weezing/Muk. We've got to look out for that.
     
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  18. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Yup, I now think Dragonair ought to be suspected. However I'd like to hear everyone else's input first- are you interested in suspecting it?
     
  19. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Some new thoughts on the tier:

    [​IMG]Fire Spin + Toxic is pretty legit in my opinion. Ninetales outspeeds everything except for Garbagetrode, so anything hit with Toxic has to pray for Fire Spin to miss. Works pretty well to punish Waters switching in, and on a lead set it can be used against Poliswag to atleast put it on a timer. It also has synergy with Agiliwrap Dragonair making it easier for Wrap to dismantle teams. I haven't tried it with my Cancer Wrap team with Dragonair+Dratini, looking forward to see how ToxicSpin performs with it. Also curious about using ToxicSpin Ponyta alongside it as a safety net to make the strategy more reliable, using Ponyta on anything slower than base 90 speed in case of a miss.

    [​IMG]/[​IMG] I'm probably going to drop them to D/E respectively. For Pikachu, I've tried to make it work but Dragonair and Vileplume make it difficult to do its job, which is already hard enough with Pikachu's very poor stats. Electrode has the same issues, except Dragonair and Vileplume are even bigger obstacles for it and it gets completely shut down by Ground-types. Explosion not even being close to a OHKO against most Pokemon doesn't help matters.

    [​IMG] I tested Beedrill in a game against marcoasd and I think it ain't bad. AgiliSD can be a great way to punish sleeping mons (Rest Seadra, Rest Seaking even more so) and take advantage of any free turns given. Of course it's got a few problems, like virtually no defensive synergy (edit: I take that back, it's a pretty good switch-in to Vileplume) and being heavily threatened by Graveler and healthy Magmar/Ninetales. But if you give Beedrill an inch it can take a mile (or in marcoasd's case, his entire team). I've put it in D for now.

    [​IMG] Anyone else feel it should drop to C? It isn't terribly strong as it is and it lets in Vileplume too comfortably.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2016
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  20. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Ninetales is the best Toxic user (to support Dnair), as Fire Spin makes it useful for Ninetales itself too. I don't think Magmar is in all that good of a position right now: what about Ninetales being better?

    Beedril worked mostly because Hydro Pump/Blizzard/Substitute Seadra is a stupid set and runs out of PPs quickly; me being dumb and forgetting about Agility helped too.
    It needs to be babied a lot, idk about the rank but it's fine as long as it's below 5U line.

    I wouldn't defend Primeape from being downgraded.
     
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  21. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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  22. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Something I made for anyone that needs help with teambuilding:
    RBY 5A (Under4U Alpha) - 5A Tournament Teambuilding Primer | Pokémon Perfect

    [​IMG] About the Dragonair suspect... still on the fence. It's hard to play enough 5A games to get a solid opinion on it. At the moment I'm leaning it isn't overpowered, but that could change after more testing.

    [​IMG] Silently added Ponyta to F rank since it really wasn't worth posting about in the ranking thread. It's solely a gimmick used alongside ToxicSpin Ninetales as a backup Fire Spin user since it is still faster than much of the tier.


    Also have a couple nominations:

    [​IMG] B > A - After playing with/against it more, I've come around on my opinion. It's not something you really fear or need to prepare for, but at the same time it's still a dual status Pokemon with an unresisted STAB, decent enough bulk to avoid 2HKOs and has no weaknesses. It can't easily switch into most Pokemon, but if it gets a free switch it's very hard to stop it from putting in work. Lead Drowzee is also pretty good since nothing really 2HKOs Drowzee in 5U so any lead without sleep is at a disadvantage. I feel like it's very splashable and just all around solid and deserves being put back in A rank.

    [​IMG] Unranked > B - I'm of the opinion 2 bulky Water-types are mandatory for a solid team, and Wartortle is pretty much the only reason Seaking wouldn't be S in my eyes since there's a viable alternative for a bulky Water. Wartortle's bulk is good enough to wall Seadra and Seaking, and in some ways can be better defensively since it has Withdraw to stall out Tail Whip Seaking. Seadra > Seaking > Wartortle, but they have their own strengths that gives each a different reason to be used over the others. Seadra has power, Seaking can use Tail Whip to break the Seadra and other Seaking, and Wartortle has utility. It's got SToss for 3HKOing Poliwag without recoil / quickly forcing Seadra and Seaking into Rest and breaking subs in 1 turn / universal coverage with 32 PP, Withdraw to counter Tail Whip, Counter to punish Normal-type attacks, and the option to run Body Slam for paralysis. Additionally, there isn't much downsides to running all 3 which makes competition less of an issue, and even makes it safe for Seaking to run Agility + Tail Whip since Wartortle can take over Seaking's defensive role.
     
  23. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Ok, I know Enigami wants a Dair suspect, I'm interested in pursuing it, so I think it's time we seriously started discussing it.

    The biggest issue at present is the level of discussion and activity. The currently running tour has six players, which obviously isn't a lot, making any decision making less authoritative. I guess the best system of managing a suspect would be for all players in the current tour to have a vote, with three of us being council members in the event that a tiebreaker is needed. At present we haven't got enough results from the current tour to be of use in determining council members, so I'd probably go based on new frontiers.

    That leaves the level of discussion. There needs to be some interest in a suspect, otherwise it'd just be me and Enigami making tiering decisions as we please which isn't really the way tiers ought to be run. As much as I really think Dragonair needs to be banned, I don't want to proceed ahead a suspect unless more people want it.

    tagging Enigami thelinekioubeur CrapAtRBY marcoasd supercube64 because you might be interested.

    If we were to vote to ban it and the tour was still running, probably there would be a couple days where results with Dair would still be accepted, just because I don't want to make ppl have to make new teams on short notice, but after a few days, the new rules would be strictly in effect
     
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  24. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    I tried Toxic, it doesn't contribute much. I don't think we need to ban a 266 attack Wrap no stab, especially in a metagame where Gastly is a decent option.
     
  25. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    The issue I have with that statement about Dragonair is that the tier's overall ability to handle that kind of attack is similarly poor. It does no good to list a bunch of traits that support Wrap as a bad move because any discussion of this nature is relative and it's just as easy to point out that the tier's defensive Pokemon aren't exactly awe-inspiring in terms of BST. Those comments on Wrap's power will still hold true even if Dair was in a tier where pokemon like Pidgey were used, but it doesn't mean Dair would be appropriate in such an environment.

    Citing Gastly is a much more solid point, but I'd argue in return that firstly Gastly is decent at best, and I don't think holds enough weight in the meta to balance out Dragonair, and second, it's not as good a Dragonair check as it might seem. Dragonair and Gastly 4HKO each other with Blizzard and Psychic respectively. Gastly does have the potential of a spec fall in its favour, which if it occurs t1 is enough to reduce the number of hits needed to KO, but on the flipside there's the obvious thing that Dragonair has probably used Agility at this point and is therefore faster.
     
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  26. supercube64

    supercube64 Member

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    I haven't played enough of the tier to really make a decision in regards to a Dragonair ban. I would need to do more matches to get a better general understanding.
     
  27. supercube64

    supercube64 Member

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    Has anyone tried farfetch'd by the way? If so, how does it fare in the meta?
     
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  28. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Wrap hits do 3-4% on average: I mentioned the "266 no STAB" as a way to make it more blatant (Dnite does 4-5% to things like Tauros and Egg). Drowzee and Poliwag are just a couple exceptions taking 5-6% and 6-7%, but that's the drawback of using a NFE. Dnair looks pretty much on par with what Dnite does in OU for the way it works , and as time went on, I found Ninetales to be just as hard to deal with if not more - at least speaking for myself...

    Best way to deal with Wrappers is to paralyze them, or just attack: the point of using Gastly is that it puts Dnair into OHKO range for those pokemon (Seadra, Seaking) who don't have access to TWave/Stun Spore and hence use Blizzard to punish the miss - not to mention Hypnosis/Explosion option.
     
  29. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Prepare for calc dumps:
    Dragonair Wrap vs. Poliwag: 17-20 (6 - 7%) - Possible 15HKO
    Dragonair Wrap vs. Drowzee: 16-19 (4.9 - 5.8%) - Possible 17HKO
    Dragonair Wrap vs. Magmar: 14-17 (4.2 - 5.1%) - Possible 20HKO
    Dragonair Wrap vs. Primeape: 14-17 (4.2 - 5.1%) - Possible 20HKO
    Dragonair Wrap vs. Arbok: 13-16 (4 - 4.9%) - Possible 21HKO
    Dragonair Wrap vs. Seaking: 13-16 (3.5 - 4.4%) - Possible 23HKO
    Dragonair Wrap vs. Wartortle: 11-14 (3.4 - 4.3%) - Possible 23HKO
    Dragonair Wrap vs. Ninetales: 12-15 (3.4 - 4.2%) - Possible 24HKO
    Dragonair Wrap vs. Seadra: 11-13 (3.5 - 4.1%) - Possible 25HKO
    Dragonair Wrap vs. Pidgeot: 12-15 (3.2 - 4%) - Possible 25HKO
    Dragonair Wrap vs. Vileplume: 11-14 (3.1 - 3.9%) - Possible 26HKO
    Dragonair Wrap vs. Marowak: 10-12 (3 - 3.7%) - Possible 27HKO
    Dragonair Wrap vs. Muk: 12-15 (2.9 - 3.6%) - Possible 28HKO
    Dragonair Wrap vs. Machamp: 11-14 (2.8 - 3.6%) - Possible 28HKO
    Dragonair Wrap vs. Graveler: 5-6 (1.5 - 1.9%) - Possible 53HKO
    Dragonair Wrap vs. Kabutops: 5-6 (1.5 - 1.8%) -- Possible 54HKO
    Dragonite Wrap vs. Jynx: 24-29 (7.2 - 8.7%) - Possible 12HKO
    Dragonite Wrap vs. Alakazam: 22-26 (7 - 8.3%) - Possible 13HKO
    Dragonite Wrap vs. Jolteon: 19-23 (5.7 - 6.9%) - Possible 15HKO
    Dragonite Wrap vs. Chansey: 37-44 (5.2 - 6.2%) - Possible 16HKO
    Dragonite Wrap vs. Starmie: 16-19 (4.9 - 5.8%) - Possible 17HKO
    Dragonite Wrap vs. Zapdos: 16-19 (4.1 - 4.9%) - Possible 20HKO
    Dragonite Wrap vs. Exeggutor: 16-19 (4 - 4.8%) - Possible 21HKO
    Dragonite Wrap vs. Tauros: 14-17 (3.9 - 4.8%) - Possible 21HKO
    Dragonite Wrap vs. Snorlax: 18-22 (3.4 - 4.2%) - Possible 24HKO
    Dragonite Wrap vs. Lapras: 16-19 (3.4 - 4.1%) - Possible 25HKO
    Dragonite Wrap vs. Slowbro: 13-16 (3.3 - 4%) - Possible 25HKO
    Dragonite Wrap vs. Cloyster: 10-12 (3.3 - 3.9%) - Possible 26HKO
    Dragonite Wrap vs. Golem: 5-7 (1.3 - 1.9%) - Possible 52HKO
    Dragonite Wrap vs. Rhydon: 5-7 (1.2 - 1.6%) - Possible 59HKO

    Even though Poliwag and Drowzee are squishy, 1U has its own common equivalent squishy Pokemon (Starmie and Chansey take about as much Wrap as Drowzee, Jolteon as much as Poliwag, and Jynx/Zam takes more than anything in 5A). Most of 5A's Pokemon can take Dragonair's Wrap as well as 1U's bulkiest non-resists vs. Dragonite's Wrap, and the bulky Pokemon of 5A can survive Wrap even longer than Cloyster. So marcoasd is correct in that regard.

    Dragonair vs. Dragonair: Thunder Wave (paralysis), Blizzard (2HKO), Agility
    Seadra vs. Dragonair: Blizzard (2HKO), Ice Beam (2HKO)
    Vileplume vs. Dragonair: Sleep Powder (75% sleep), Stun Spore (75% paralysis), Body Slam (30% paralysis)
    Drowzee vs. Dragonair: Thunder Wave (paralysis), Hypnosis (60% sleep)
    Poliwag vs. Dragonair: Hypnosis (60% sleep)
    Seaking vs. Dragonair: Blizzard (2HKO)
    Gastly vs. Dragonair: Immunity to Wrap, Hypnosis (60% sleep)
    Kabutops vs. Dragonair: Wrap resist, Blizzard (2HKO), +2 Hyper Beam (72% OHKO), Slash + Hyper Beam (approximately 45% KO), Body Slam (30% paralysis)
    Magmar vs. Dragonair: Fire Blast (30% burn), Body Slam (30% paralysis)
    Ninetales vs. Dragonair: Toxic (85% poison), Fire Blast (30% burn), Body Slam (30% paralysis)
    Pidgeot vs. Dragonair: Toxic (85% poison)
    Wartortle vs. Dragonair: Blizzard (2HKO), Body Slam (30% paralysis)
    Arbok vs. Dragonair: Glare (75% paralysis)
    Graveler vs. Dragonair: Wrap resist, Body Slam (30% paralysis), Fire Blast (30% burn)
    Machamp vs. Dragonair: Body Slam (30% paralysis)
    Marowak vs. Dragonair: Blizzard (18% 2HKO)
    Muk vs. Dragonair: Sludge (30% poison), Body Slam (30% paralysis)
    Primeape vs. Dragonair: Body Slam (30% paralysis)
    Chansey vs. Dragonite: Thunder Wave (paralysis), Ice Beam (2HKO), Sing (55% sleep)
    Tauros vs. Dragonite: Blizzard (2HKO), Body Slam (30% paralysis)
    Snorlax vs. Dragonite: Ice Beam (2HKO), Body Slam (30% paralysis)
    Exeggutor vs. Dragonair: Sleep Powder (75% sleep), Stun Spore (75% paralysis), Body Slam (30% paralysis)
    Alakazam vs. Dragonite: Thunder Wave (paralysis)
    Starmie vs. Dragonite: Thunder Wave (paralysis), Blizzard (38.5% OHKO)Lapras vs. Dragonite: Blizzard (OHKO)
    Slowbro vs. Dragonite: Thunder Wave (paralysis)
    Zapdos vs. Dragonite: Thunder Wave (paralysis)
    Gengar vs. Dragonite: Immunity to Wrap, Hypnosis (60% sleep)
    Golem vs. Dragonite: Wrap resist, Body Slam (30% paralysis), Fire Blast (30% burn), Rock Slide (2HKO)
    Jolteon vs. Dragonite: Thunder Wave (paralysis)
    Jynx vs. Dragonite: Blizzard (OHKO)
    Cloyster vs. Dragonite: Blizzard (OHKO)
    Rhydon vs. Dragonite: Wrap resist, Body Slam (30% paralysis), Fire Blast (30% burn), Blizzard (2HKO), Rock Slide (2HKO)
    Dragonite vs. Dragonite: Thunder Wave (paralysis), Blizzard (38% OHKO), Agility

    However, thanks to 1U having OHKOs from STAB Blizzards and Thunder Wave EVERYWHERE, there's a lot less opportunities for Dragonite to set up compared to Dragonair in 5U, and there's far less opportunity cost to using Dragonair as there is using Dragonite in 1U. I don't think Dragonair can be considered equivalent to Dragonite in 1U.

    That said, my teams didn't have a Gastly, Kabutops or Graveler, and any of those 3 would greatly reduce the power of Wrap. I also usually tried to exhaust Wrap's PP with switches instead of playing out the RNG for misses, so maybe staying in more could've helped. On top of that any Pokemon without good options against Dragonair always have the option to run Toxic, so there is still a way for Pokemon to deal with AgiliWrap no matter what. So now I'm back to a giant question mark as to whether Dragonair is OP or not.
     
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  30. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I think it might be a good idea to re-engage in exploration of this tier now

    I know Ch01W0n5h1n and Diegolh have been playing some casual games of it here and there and are into it
     
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  31. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Huh, I hadn't seen this post when I opened the major league thing. Would people like another tour or is that tour sufficient for the time being?
     
  32. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I think do new frontiers after major league, for 5U
     
  33. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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  34. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    hastebin

    Snaite suggested I post all my teams for the sake of a sample so here you go I guess lol.
     
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